[00:00:00] Mica: Welcome to the 69th episode of the Savory Shot, a podcast about the art and soul of working in food photography. I'm your host with the most Mica McCook. I'm a food photographer, visual storyteller, and full-time survivor of Austin's I 35 traffic overpriced fil lattes, and conversations with Tech Bros who say things like, Let's circle back to this topic, AKA, Austin, Texas.
I swear, I do love living in Austin. Don't let my intro fool you. Before we get into the good stuff, I gotta take a breath
and say thanks, because let me tell y'all this podcast. It's recorded between snack breaks, [00:01:00] reshoots, and moments where I'm questioning all of my life choices. But y'all make it worth it every single time. So to all the day oner's, the ones who have been with me since episode one dropped. Thank you for being here, for listening, for showing up, even when I feel like a creative hot mess.
Who forgot how to pronounce ISO, or is it ISO? Or is it iso? Who knows? Tomato. Tomato, eh,
Y'all, this show isn't always polished or perfect, but it's honest, and that's all I can ask for. If this is your first time tuning in, [00:02:00] welcome to the family, boo. You are one of us now. Get on the Hot Mess Express and kick back. Now let's get into today's guest. I'm joined by the wildly talented Ren Fuller, a food and lifestyle photographer based out in LA.
She's trekked to Everest Base camp, climbed rocks like it's no big deal, and somehow still makes time to raise her little one. Who in her words is a professional mess maker. Ren's got a background in film and a brain built for storytelling. Y'all. Her photos, oh my gosh, her photos are beautiful. They're bright, playful, real.
She captures the kind of moments that make you feel something. [00:03:00] In this episode, we explore what it really means to build a creative life that fits you, not the other way around. Y'all, this conversation, it cracked something open in me. I felt all of this, all of this conversation felt so deeply in my heart. But before we get into all that, goodness, grab your cocktails. A pen, a paper. Let's start the show.
Welcome to the Savory Shot, a biweekly show about the art and soul of working in food photography. I'm your host, Mica McCook.
Every other Wednesday I sit down to chat with professionals in the industry so that you feast on only the best tips and strategies in the business. [00:04:00] Alright, y let's get started.
Ren, I wanna start off the podcast by saying thank you for being here, for joining us. I am so excited to have you on the show. So welcome to the Savory Shot.
[00:04:21] Ren: Thank you so much for asking me to be on the show. I'm very honored.
[00:04:24] Mica: I wanna let the listeners know how I first found your photography and it was at the Austin Food and Wine Festival.
I've been going for a few years now. I was in the gift shop and I found Mi Cocina by Rick Martinez, and I immediately was just drawn to the color, to the drama and the saturation and the texture and the hands, and I was just like, ah, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. Whenever I find a cookbook that I'm just in love with, my first thing is I look up who the photographer is because I wanna go and admire them later.
And that's what I did, and that's how I found you. [00:05:00] I started following you on Instagram and, and I've just been in love with your work since then.
[00:05:05] Ren: Thank you.
[00:05:06] Mica: What moment from Mi Cocina still lives in your, your bones, your brains today?
[00:05:12] Ren: Oh my gosh. I mean, this is a very good question because I feel like the project as a whole was just so special and I, I feel like, I remember when we were doing it, I was like, I don't think I'm ever gonna get a project like this ever again.
Like this is like, it was like a dream project. It's just like, an author who's incredible, like recipes that are incredible. It was a two week job, so it's like a lot of work. It's abroad, it's in, we shot it in Matalan in Mexico, right by the beach. I got super lucky because the stylists assistance, they were all my friends.
So it was just a big friend group just hanging out for two weeks, shooting together. I mean, it was a lot of work. Like I remember coming [00:06:00] back from that shoot and someone was like, oh my God, how was your vacation? And I was like, well, it wasn't a vacation. We worked like over a hundred hours. But yeah, it was fun.
We worked like nonstop. We just like, we landed and we just hit the ground. We like didn't stop. I think we had like maybe a day where no one did anything, but I doubt it.
[00:06:19] Mica: But I bet it didn't feel like work because you're with friends and you're doing something creative.
[00:06:26] Ren: It did though, like, you know, we did 10 hour days, sometimes a little bit more.
[00:06:31] Mica: What?
[00:06:32] Ren: Five days a week for two weeks. And then on the weekends, Rick took us to his friend's farm and we did outings. But I, I was shooting, and then before the book started, the stylists were all like prepping the prop stylist. Nydia had to make all her surfaces there, so it was just nonstop and it was hot.
It was like very hot there.
[00:06:54] Mica: So when someone's like, how was your vacation? It's like, you come, do what I do and let's call it a vacation.
[00:06:59] Ren: Yeah. [00:07:00] But it was a really fun job. It was really fun, hard work. But I feel like a moment that I feel like encapsulates the feeling of that whole project because cookbooks are, they're very low budget.
They can be very gorilla style where you're throwing things together and making things work and doing things minimally, not the way that you would do on a big ad job. And we had these shots that we were planning to shoot on the beach, and so we got everything ready. It was just me, the prop stylist, my assistant who helped me, and the prop stylist, the food stylist and her assistant.
And then the creative director was there too. And then Rick, the author. And so we all made our way to the beach and we're just shooting these like there's no food truck with a refrigerator, Caroline styling on a rock. My assistant's like holding an umbrella over anyone who looks like they're like about to pass [00:08:00] out.
I don't have a digi tech, so my laptop is literally like balancing on one of those wooden cookbook stands or like the kitchen. We brought that. That was like balancing on a rock and like being leveled by my shoe. It's like we were all in our bathing suits 'cause we were like sweating. The creative director was like styling the sand with a feather. Like it was just, it was like, it was ridiculous. Like it was such a funny scene. We were such a scene on the beach, but it was so much fun. Like it was so much fun. And we got really awesome. I think we did five shots there and two hours or something crazy. Yeah, that was a moment that I feel like that was like the vibe of the shoot.
It was just all hands on deck. Just making it work and being like very happy with the result.
[00:08:50] Mica: Oh man. Now that I know the history behind those shots, like it's gonna make me wanna go back and look at the book and be like, I know.
[00:08:59] Ren: Yeah. All the beach [00:09:00] shots. Yeah, it really stuck with me.
So I feel like the small cookbook budgets are really hard and can be very frustrating, but it also allows you to be pretty creative which I like.
Yeah.
[00:09:15] Mica: You mentioned like being on the beach, and so how did Mexico's light and place change your choices on set?
[00:09:24] Ren: Well, actually, 95% of this book was shot in Rick's tiny little spare room that's now his beautiful office.
Yeah, so we shot all of the recipes aside from those beach shots, were all shot in this tiny, tiny little room because usually like food shoots, at least like the cookbooks that I do is just, it's easier to do them in a studio because it's a controlled environment. You need a kitchen nearby, blah, blah, blah.
So yeah, all of those recipes were shot in like a tiny, tiny room. But I, as a photographer, I'm very inspired [00:10:00] by light. By real light. And so I tried to emulate the light that was around me in Mexico, which was just harsh, bright sun, really depended on the time of the day that you would eat this recipe.
Was it like a morning? Was it like an afternoon? And then also because originally I was supposed to travel with Rick to the seven culinary regions of Mexico, and we made it to one, we started at Michoacán, which was like the central Central Mexico region. And that was at the end of 2019. And then in 2020 we were supposed to do the rest of the regions.
And then of course, we all know what happened in 2020, so we had to really shift that portion of the book. And so it became really obviously important for, and this is such a team effort, the prop stylist really tried to emulate prop wise. What props that you would come from certain regions. And so all of that really [00:11:00] played into, I guess like the choices that we made.
So it wasn't just lighting, it was propping to, because we couldn't be in these places really. We had to like bring those places to the tiny room, if that makes sense.
[00:11:14] Mica: I love that. Like I'm just envisioning a whole team in this teeny tiny room and it's like, yeah, it's a small space, but look at all this magic that we're doing.
Because I mean, when I look at, at Mi Cocina and I look at the photos, it just feels like I'm in a kitchen, I'm in a dining room, like I'm there.
[00:11:34] Ren: Oh, I love that. I'm so happy that came out.
[00:11:37] Mica: Yeah.
[00:11:38] Ren: Because sometimes you don't know, you're just, you're in this room for 50 hours a week and yeah, sometimes you just like forget the outside world exists.
So I'm glad that that comes out.
[00:11:50] Mica: Yes, it really does. What I love about cookbooks specifically. It reminds me a lot of theater and how you fall in love [00:12:00] with characters and the set and the costumes and the lighting and everything, and you're just taken into that world and, and I feel that way about cookbooks is that it's not just one shot, it's many shots and it's all of these different snippets of stories and especially when the books are so personal to the chef and you're learning about their childhood and their life and you just envision being there with them and seeing them in this environment.
So I just love, you touched on it a little on the beach images, but which image took the most heart to get right to what finally worked?
[00:12:38] Ren: This is a good question. Books are hard. You kind of struggle and you hit little dead ends. I actually was flipping through the book, like refreshing my memory and as soon as I got to page 280, this photo, this literally the shot almost broke me.
It was just like not working. I was so frustrated. I think it's the pork and [00:13:00] oysters shot and it's on like a little ceramic pig.
[00:13:04] Mica: Oh, that one? Oh yes, yes, yes.
[00:13:09] Ren: Yeah. Like everyone was so excited about the ceramic pig, like so excited and it's like, it's super cute and so, but it's awkwardly, it's like a small little petite grill, but it's also big for the surfaces that we were working with.
And so I like could not figure out the angle for it to work. It was too big for the surface. And am I shooting it straight on? But you had to shoot it at. But then if you shot at two overhead, you couldn't tell it was a grill. It was like this whole thing and I was losing my mind. And then finally I was, "Guys, I am just not feeling the shot.
It's just not working." And I think everyone felt bad 'cause I could tell, I was like kind of stressing about it. 'Cause I think Rick really wanted to use his grill and I, I wanted to make that happen for him. [00:14:00] And so I think once I admitted that I was struggling, everyone was like, okay, let's take a pause.
Let's just look at our surroundings. And then someone had the idea, I'm sure it was Nidia, the prop stylist, why don't we put this outside? 'Cause there's all this beautiful tile like around his property. And we were, there was like a tiny little mini courtyard that wasn't finished, but it had nice neutral tile.
And she's like, why don't we put it out here and see? How does that give you the space that you need to at least. Find your angle. And I was like, okay. I was like, yes. So then I got my angle and like literally once the angle was there, like everything came together, Nidia brought in like a little plant that was already out there peeking in.
And then Caroline brought in a little plate of like already eaten oysters and it really came together and it ended up being like a shot that I really love. But it [00:15:00] was like almost broke me to get there. But I think it was just admitting, it's hard to admit when you, you can't do something. And the beautiful part about working on set is it is such a collaborative environment and even though it's your job as the photographer to find the angle and and create the light. Like people have good ideas and I think it's important to admit when you can't do something or you like can't figure something out because it literally was just taking like a minute break and just looking around.
And another idea popped up that I probably, 'cause I was so lost in that moment of making it work, I don't think I would've come up with it myself.
[00:15:42] Mica: Oh man, you definitely, I mean, you raised such a good point about leaning so much on your team and not feeling like you have to shoulder all of everything.
It's like teamwork makes the dream work. I'm such a firm believer in that.
[00:15:57] Ren: Totally same. [00:16:00]
[00:16:00] Mica: And, I know for me, I'm like, look, my brain just disappears during a shoot. And some, what's a, what's an F stop? What's a, yeah, what's a, what's a ISO? What's this camera like? Who gave this to me?
[00:16:15] Ren: Yeah. You can get like really lost in in the panic of a shot.
Yes.
[00:16:20] Mica: Yes. And it's so great that the tiniest change is what kept everything going. Yeah. Yeah. I would feel flustered too. And it's like, fuck, this isn't working.
[00:16:35] Ren: Like it's not working well, it's also, it's like, yeah, it's, if you are kind of in the mindset of like, oh, I have to use this prop and I have to use this surface, and the two are not working together, but you feel like you have to do justice to the scene and the props and everything like that, and you don't wanna like fail and.
I got really in my head about it, but it all worked out. It all worked,
[00:16:59] Mica: And it's a [00:17:00] beautiful shot.
[00:17:01] Ren: Thanks. I know, it's really cute here. It's again, the little piggy.
[00:17:06] Mica: Oh, and it's a little, oh, that's a beautiful shot.
[00:17:09] Ren: Yeah, it's really fun. This little pot of plant was already there
[00:17:13] Mica: And I see why he loved that ceramic pig.
He's like, we gotta make this work. He was right. That's such a beautiful shot.
[00:17:20] Ren: Yeah. He like dragged that thing home from wherever he found it. I mean, that was a cool thing. He did his culinary tour by himself because he was already in Mexico. So a lot of the images that are from those regions, more like the documentary style photos, they're all his photos.
They were originally supposed to be photos that I've shot, so he still traveled to all these places and sourced props from all these places. So he really helped bring all of these regions to his home. It was very cool.
[00:17:55] Mica: I love that. I love that so much.
[00:17:58] Ren: So yeah, it's like if a [00:18:00] prop was very special, I was like, we have to make this prop work.
[00:18:03] Mica: Yeah.
It's like when there's a will, there's a way.
[00:18:05] Ren: Yeah.
[00:18:06] Mica: And it has to happen. And I can keep going about how much I just love the colors and it really, uh.
[00:18:17] Ren: I mean, I feel like that's all Nidia. Yeah. She has such a way with, I love her prop style just in general. She has such a way with color specifically and just creating like little vignettes that I think are just so beautiful.
And she's so good at just picking just like the right flatware, the right napkin. And she really is so good at telling a story with her props that I feel like that credit is aia.
[00:18:42] Mica: Every shoot that I do, if I can bring a prop stylist on, I'm gonna, because they find things that I don't even know where to begin.
I didn't even know these things existed. And I was like, what is this? And so that's great that you express that, 'cause man.
[00:18:58] Ren: I feel very lucky [00:19:00] to be at the point in my career where I work with stylists because they bring so much. Like it's not the photographer's show, it's like everyone's show. Like everyone brings so much to the table.
And I had just did a small project. I'm gonna try to not say like who or what it was for, but I just did a small project where I guess the creator of the project, it was their brand and the person that was putting the shoot on were like, here's your budget. And I was like, okay. Like I was like, do you want me to estimate for me and a prop stylist or like.
To figure out what can work within the budget. And she was like, oh no, I was thinking it would just be you and the brand creator. Like she's gonna be doing all of the prop styling because she has like a whole brand. Like she has a whole look and feel. It's like a lot of it is based around her home. And I was okay and the budget was kind of awkward in the sense that it was enough for me as a [00:20:00] photographer.
It was enough for a prop stylist, but not enough for a prop budget. Like, not even close. But then on the flip side I was like, okay, well if I can't do a prop stylist, then it was enough to hire two assistants and I was a like between the three of us, we can kind of like wrangle whatever props this creator has and kind of make it work.
And it like, I wasn't happy with how it looked because this could have been so much better if we had an actual stylist who does their job well. And I was like, no shade on the crater. Like they tried really, really hard and I think they did their best, but I don't know, I just feel like a professional stylist for a reason and they bring so much to the table.
And when you don't have that person, it just doesn't feel like, it doesn't just like drive it home. And it's funny, I was just like, oh man, like I haven't not worked with a stylist in so long and I [00:21:00] took the job anyway because it's 2025 and it's been a hard year. And I was like, oh God, like I remember I have to really put my foot down about this.
It's just not the kind of work I wanna be creating. So that was good learning experience.
[00:21:15] Mica: I wanna take it to lighting because we, we touched a little bit earlier about it and what I admire so much about your photography is just how you play with light and how you incorporate it into your work. And it's so much part of the composition and I'm just like, oh my God,
[00:21:34] Ren: Thank you.
[00:21:36] Mica: She's so talented and I love that. So I watch this video about keeping a binder of lighting diagrams, which I don't do, but now that I think about it, I'm like, I should do that. Because there have been lighting situations where I'm like, this was wonderful. And like you went to film school, I'm sure that you have a background with creating lighting diagrams.
[00:21:59] Ren: Oh my [00:22:00] gosh, it's so funny. My film school education barely plays into, because what with film school, you're lighting with continuous lighting, so it's very different with photography. I am mainly lighting with strobes. Like 95% of the time if I'm doing a video stills combo, then I will get into continuous lighting.
But yeah, I actually don't keep diagrams or anything. And I think because my lighting is really inspired by the time of day of the story that the photo is trying to tell. So for me it's like, it's very important to know if it's a food. If it's a recipe shot, like I wanna know what time of day is this dish eaten?
Is it in the morning or is it in the afternoon? Is it like end of day? Because the lighting is gonna be completely different. Is it in the summer? Is it a summer dish? Is it a winter dish? Is it in an area like Mexico where it's bright and sunny all the time? Or is it in Seattle where [00:23:00] it's like overcast most of the year?
So I feel like those are the questions that I have to ask when I'm creating my idea for the light. I think that's why I don't have the diagrams is because I'm not just like repurposing. I mean like of course I have like my go-to like, oh I'll, if I wanna do bright and sunny, this is how I'll start it.
But I feel I like to light with a lot of intention and I'm not just lighting it for lighting's sake.
[00:23:31] Mica: Yeah. So do you ever just look at light and just study it and look at it and that kind of helps you determine.
[00:23:40] Ren: Yeah, I spent a lot of time sitting outside looking at things, looking at how light hits a certain color temperature, actually, like if I had to pick a favorite time of day, it's kind of like that late afternoon, not quite early evening, but getting there.
'Cause the light turns just like this really beautiful golden color. [00:24:00] So if I'm like trying to emulate that on set, like I'll use CTO and like mix a little bit of CTB because the shadows are blue, tend to start cooling off. You know, it's just like I do spend a lot of time sitting outside and. I just really love looking at light.
Like I love shadows, I love dapple, like I love all of that stuff. And that's another thing is are we, is this a picnic scene? Are we under a tree? Like should we have dapple here? Because it's like a specific, I think lighting really needs to add to the story of like the scene that you're creating. So yeah, I mean, like, I have like my go-to ways to light, but I, I feel like everything is usually a little different.
Like I'm always kind of like moving things around based on the dish or the scene or the frame. But my assistants will make diagrams. So like if I am working with a lead assistant who's gonna be spearheading the lighting because it's a bigger shoot and I'm dealing with a client, I [00:25:00] will tell them, him or her, what I like or what I want to make happen and where I'm envisioning the light coming from.
And then oftentimes. They'll send me diagrams of what they're thinking and they're like, oh, does this, is this kind of what you're thinking? And I was, yeah, like, that looks great. So that diagram is helpful for them, but I don't usually like provide a diagram. Yeah.
[00:25:22] Mica: That's such a great idea. And I mean hearing you talk about like what you look for whenever you're looking at light.
Like I just, I think about like looking at your website and your social media and I'm like, I can see that.
[00:25:36] Ren: Oh, oh, that makes me really happy to hear because I feel like lighting is, I feel like that was a really big insecurity for me starting out as a photographer. I was really afraid of artificial light.
Like anytime I had a client, I like pushed natural window light because it was like my security blanket. But then you get to a point where you really can't depend on a [00:26:00] window or like an outside space if the client really wants a specific like look and feel. And it was very scary to me to move away from natural light.
And now it's funny 'cause now I feel like I wanna work my way back to it. 'Cause I think it's really nice to have the freedom to shoot wherever and not over complicate it with like, all of the modifiers and stuff. But yeah, it's really about like studying the light that you wanna create. I did a lot of pool, uh, like an image of lighting that I really liked and I would try to recreate that light myself, not in like a, oh, I wanna copy this photo.
It was like an exercise of can I make my photo look like the lighting so I can understand how that lighting was created? And everyone also lights differently. You can light, you can have a look that a photographer, three photographers will all approach in different ways. They'll use [00:27:00] different modifiers.
They'll, they'll like use different kinds of strobes they might not use, you know, whatever it is, everyone does it differently. So it's just about figuring out how to get the look that you are happy with.
[00:27:14] Mica: What you said about how photographers approach things differently. Like it reminds me of, uh, photo school. We were all given the same parameters of like the assignment, you know, white on white, black on black.
Like we had different assignments and it was interesting to see everyone how they were lighting things and knowing what not to do in some of the lighting situations. And then seeing someone do something and go, Ooh, I'm gonna do that in my next shoot. But I love your idea or your habit of just looking at light.
I think I could do that a little more.
[00:27:52] Ren: Yeah. 'Cause photography is this funny thing where if you're just shooting for fun, like you just capture these moments [00:28:00] that are like magical and work and you're just, wow. Like sometimes you gotten photos just for fun and I'm like, I don't know if like, I could recreate this.
It's just, it was just like a moment. But it's your job as a photographer to recreate, I feel like on ad jobs, creative directors. We'll create these really thorough decks where they have a really specific look and feel and they have like all the reference images to kind of show like the mood that they're going for and it's your job to bring it.
I think everyone can be, I can be way more observant. My husband's always like, how are you a photographer if you don't notice like these things around you? But I think I just like, my mind just focuses on really specific things and lighting is one of those. Whenever I travel, I love walking around and just like looking at light, like falling through like all the different times of day on the architecture and all of that stuff.
So that's just like something that really speaks to me that I think has [00:29:00] helped me in my career, I guess.
[00:29:01] Mica: You mentioned earlier about recording moments. I actually have been like, wanting to keep my phone out of my hand more often, but I still want a camera, but I don't wanna take my work camera with me.
And so I, I actually bought a, a small Sony ZVE 10. I feel like I'm cheating on my Canon. It is the weirdest, like I point my Canons away and I'm like, don't look.
[00:29:25] Ren: Girl, have that affair. Have that affair.
[00:29:28] Mica: I'm like, don't look at it. It's just a friend. Like, it don't mean nothing. Like you're my workhorse.
You know?
[00:29:36] Ren: I honestly, I stopped taking my work camera around. It's been years. They're heavy. They're like, it draws so much attention to me. It's like the smaller, the better. I actually just came across, I just got an ad for this on Instagram and I'm like, I think I'm gonna buy this. It's a $70. It's called a Camp Snap.
It's a screen free [00:30:00] digital camera.
[00:30:01] Mica: Oh my God. I'm gonna buy it too.
[00:30:03] Ren: Yeah, it's like a film camera, but then you don't have to like develop the film and you don't have to worry if the film's gonna look like shit. The beauty of the phone, because everything does eventually like go on Instagram or like what some platform.
It just became such a hassle to like load the card and do the edit. I do like how instant a phone is. So I'm like constantly like going back and forth of like, I go through waves where I'm just like shooting with a muralist and then I go through waves where I'm like, I'm just not even gonna bring a camera.
I'm just gonna have my phone. Like I went on my first vacation in my entire photo career life. So I was, I've been shooting for, I wanna say like maybe around like 10, 10 years or so, and maybe more like 10 to 12 years. And I just went on a trip a year and a half ago and it was the first time ever I did not bring a camera.
And I like legit like asked all my friends, I'm [00:31:00] like, is this crazy? Is this crazy that I'm not bringing a camera? And someone was just, well, it's your Fuji, like it's so small, just bring it anyway. And I was like, no, I don't wanna bring my camera. I don't wanna bring my camera because then I'm gonna take it really seriously.
[00:31:15] Mica: You become photographer mode, it just, it changes.
[00:31:19] Ren: You become photographer mode. So I didn't bring it. I just had my phone and it was very liberating.
[00:31:26] Mica: So no regrets. Like you.
[00:31:29] Ren: No regrets. I had a great vacation.
[00:31:32] Mica: Oh my God.
[00:31:33] Ren: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:35] Mica: So I wanna tail into cookbooks and your experience with cookbooks. And the first thing I wanna ask is, what is something that photographers should insist on before they do a cookbook or when they get a bid for a cookbook?
What would you say that is?
[00:31:57] Ren: So most publishers [00:32:00] will offer when you're estimating, when they like send over their version of the contract. Like say you like did an estimate and they agreed on $50,000 or whatever, then they're gonna send their contract and they're gonna be like, we're gonna pay you in three installments.
And oftentimes it's like broken up into thirds. So what's like a third of 50 grand? I don't even know. I can't do math very well. It's like something between like $15,000 Anyway, whatever it is. But say it's like a week or a two week shoot, like that $15,000 is not gonna cover everything that you need to spend money on to get that shoot off the ground.
And so like the biggest oversight that I think publishers have is not budgeting for a studio, but oftentimes you do need a studio. Like unless an author's like a celebrity and they have a big house with a big space. Most normal people don't have a home that can host a two week long [00:33:00] cookbook in their house.
Like it's just not comfortable for anyone. And so I think like the one thing is, is pushing for the budget that you actually need to get the amount of shots they need off the ground. But the biggest thing is in advance and I feel like it's like rewriting the contract to make sure that you get the money upfront so you're not spending any of your own money on this project because you don't owe anything to these people.
Like why would you put money? And I did that like for the first couple of years it was always so stressful. 'Cause you have to like front all this money. You are hiring crew that are usually on like a net 30, but the contract says that it won't send you, it won't like send, I forget what like the second payment is.
It's usually like after reviewing the images. Within 30 days they'll send you the money. But by then, like the shoot's been done for maybe like a week or two weeks. So like you have to pay your [00:34:00] team. And I remember I just thought that's like the way it was. And there were a few shoots that I just had to pay out of pocket to like cover the prop stylist and the budget.
And depending on where you're in your career, like just don't have that money. But even if you do have that money, it's not your job to front it. Like it's just not your job. So now the biggest, I actually almost lost a cookbook and I was okay with it. Like I was at a point in my career where like I was like, I do not need this book for it to like put this much like financial stress on me.
And it was a big book. It was like the budget was like 90 grand and it was, which is like, sounds like a lot, but it's not, it's not that much. You're still like pinching pennies everywhere. But we had to rent a studio for 14 days. I think the advance was something like $20,000. I forget. It was like a low enough advance that it just like wouldn't cover my upfront costs.
And I was, I think I had [00:35:00] to, on top of the advance also front, like 15 grand or something like that. I was like, I'm not gonna do this. Like it's not okay. Like this is a big publisher. It's a big author like you have in advance. Like pay me so I can get the shoot off the ground. And it like turned into this huge thing.
And you could keep this because like I feel very passionate about this, but like the author's lawyer was just like, this is not okay. And I was like, okay, fine. Like I'm sure you could find someone that's like totally fine fronting this money, but I'm not, I have a business, I have to pay people by a certain time.
I'm not putting my business on the line just to do you a favor. I don't know who you are. I've never worked with you. Like why would I do you this favor? And it like turned into this big thing. The publisher got re-involved 'cause they were just, what's the problem? Like why isn't this contract being signed?
And I was like, this contract doesn't work for me. And she was like, she did a really nice job. She like really like listened to me. And she was like, okay. Like I hear what you're saying [00:36:00] but we don't get this pushback from other photographers. And I was, that's too bad. That's too bad. Because like no photographer should be putting their personal, we are a small business.
Like we are creatives just trying to get by. We're all like, the rates already like suck. Like, you know what I mean? It's just no photographer should be putting their personal savings on the line for a project and then waiting however many months to get reimbursed. Like, it's just not cool. It's just not cool.
And I was like, I really appreciate you pushing me for this project. Like. I would love, love, love to do it, but I just can't, I can't agree to this contract. I'm so sorry. I hope you understand. And they reworked the contract. It's possible to rework a contract, but I like had reached a point where I was basically totally fine walking from it because I, I felt strongly, again, even if I could have paid for it.
And I feel like at that time, like work was [00:37:00] going really well and I probably like could have like, done it without. It was just like the fact of the matter. I was just, this is just not a cool practice. And I feel like that's a very common thing with cookbooks. And I think photographers are just so eager to do a project that they're, they just do it.
They just like suck it up and do it. And then I've been in that situation where you're just like waiting like, okay, you're like, okay, I'm gonna front this money, but I should be paid within 30 days. What if that payment's late? What if you have to pay your credit card off before like the payment comes?
[00:37:32] Mica: Are you really comfortable taking that financial hit? I mean, that's what shocked me.
[00:37:40] Ren: Yeah. And if you're doing like multiple books at once, it's like, where do you think this money's coming from? And it's frustrating because it's also coming from like a larger corporation that does have the money to provide comfortable environment for the people that they're hiring.
Like I just think a lot of shit falls on the creative [00:38:00] people that I wish like more people pushed back on. And I mean, like I think a lot of people in like the cookbook, like I think oftentimes the author usually agrees to like an installment plan. And so they might not have the money to like cover the expenses because they haven't delivered whatever their portion is to receive the next sum of lump sum of money.
So I think it's just like there's a lot of like misinformation and like lack of communication that leads to this. Like the shoot's almost like the most important part. Like you can't have a book without the shoot. I mean, you could, there's definitely some incredible books that have no photos and they're fine.
But yeah, it's frustrating. And I think one of the biggest differences between cookbooks and like ad jobs for example, is for like an ad job. When you're bidding on it, most photographers or their agents will ask for the advance is a hundred percent of the expenses. So basically you get this lump sum of money because [00:39:00] no producer is gonna put the production on their personal bank accounts.
Like they're just not gonna do that. And so that's like a standard that is met in advertising jobs and I don't understand why it's not met anywhere else. Like editorial is just harder. I mean, it should be. Yeah, it should be.
[00:39:20] Mica: The way that you explain it. It absolutely should be. I wish that I had done that with the cookbook shoot that I did. 'Cause there was just so many things that I didn't anticipate. And one of them was paying for the food cost. I didn't think about that. And that added up.
[00:39:37] Ren: Yeah.
[00:39:38] Mica: Really fast, really quick.
[00:39:40] Ren: Yeah. And I, I know to charge for that. Like, I'll do, I think it's something like $70 a day per person on set for X amount of days. And that's the number. And people are like, oh, can you, 'cause I have, you know, I have to feed people breakfast and lunch. And [00:40:00] sometimes they're like, can you do less than that?
And you're like, no, not in this current economy where like, everything's an in cost, an insane amount of money. So I like stay firm with that. If they ever throw any, oh, this person's gonna join the set. Okay. Didn't estimate for, for that person to be eating on set. So I'll send you the final bill and I have all of that.
That all has to be like spelled out on your contract. Anything that you're spending over, you have to have a conversation about it. And then there's sometimes where I like notice that we're. I think on the last shoot that I did, the author's agent ended up coming for a couple days, but I noticed that one of the people like was an, or like was ordering something like small for breakfast or lunch.
I just noticed that we were under in our food budget and I was, I bet it's not gonna be a big deal if this agent orders one or two days, it's fine. So I didn't bring it up and it ended up being fine, [00:41:00] but I like did the math a little bit. I was like, is this gonna throw me off? 'Cause if it was, I would say something, I'd be like, I didn't estimate for this person to be here.
[00:41:08] Mica: Like, so well, we'll be adjusting that.
[00:41:10] Ren: Yeah. I will not spend a cent until, and like there's times where estimated for a specific studio and like usually most publishers are really good. Like once you sign the contract, they'll send the advance because that like locks it in. But there's been times where like the advance isn't coming, the advance isn't coming.
And I'm like, guys, like I'm not, I can't book the studio until I have money sitting in my bank account like. We're gonna lose the studio and then it's gonna, I got you the cheapest studio that exists. If it gets booked up, we're gonna have to go to the like next available, which might be like a lot more money.
And then that usually gets them, they're like, yeah, okay. We're wiring it to you, like, But, yeah, no, like I will not spend a cent until I have money from the publisher or the author, whoever is doing it.
Yeah. And like with paying the crew, I feel like [00:42:00] for, if it's like a longer shoot, obviously the crew can be something like $50,000 of the budget and I just make sure that there's like language in there basically. I think a lot of publishers are like pretty firm on not sending the second installment until they see some work.
I think in the past I used to be like, well, I can't send the work until I'm done the shoot because I have to like sit on my computer and edit and like make sure it looks good. And now what I do is I just, I set up a Dropbox and I send the link to like everyone that's involved in the book and I use Capture one.
I don't use Lightroom, but I'm sure Lightroom does something similar where I set up the processing and when we get the shot, I process it out and it goes into the folder and I'm like, you have to follow along throughout the day. Like confirm that you've received it, confirm there's no changes that need to be made.
Like if you see something that's not working for you, like I [00:43:00] need to know that day so that we have time to like incorporate those changes. And I count that Dropbox link. That's the first day is when they reviewed the photos. And so then I send my invoice immediately so that I have it by the time I have to pay the team.
[00:43:17] Mica: Now you don't play around with that. You're like, hoo, there's that. Shoot,
[00:43:23] Ren: I don't fuck around. I mean, not when, not on like the bigger shoots where it's like, I feel like I just did like a two day shoot and I did end up like fronting so many. But I've worked with a publisher so many times. Something just happened where I think the invoice got like someone missed it or whatever.
And I didn't have the second portion of the invoice in time, which was like the crew payment. And I was like, whatever, it's a two day shoot, I'm just gonna pay it. Like I know they're good for it, but it was only 'cause it was like a two day shoot. It was not the end of the world. But if it was for like a week or two weeks, like hell no, I'm not fronting that money.
Like no way.
[00:43:59] Mica: So with [00:44:00] the shoots that you've done for cookbooks, what is a a hard lesson? You'll never forget from that moment, from, if you can dwindle it down to one.
[00:44:12] Ren: It honestly kind of ties into this. It's bringing up any issue right away. The first cookbook that I did, I just assumed that everyone knew photographers worked on a 10 hour day and I didn't have that in my contract.
And the authors that I were was working with, they chose to like food and prop style themselves. And because the food stylist was that, it was her book, so like she obviously like knew how to prepare the food, but like for prop styling, like it was very slow in that department and we were constantly wrapping like an hour or two late and it was a two week shoot and like halfway through it I was like, fuck, like it's added up to a full extra day at this [00:45:00] point of work.
And it was like 10 years ago. So I was, I was like young and like really insecure and I was so afraid to say something and then by the time I finally did, she was like, well, why don't you tell me sooner? Like I can't just pay you like an extra like day or two of work. And I just had to like, that was a hard lesson.
I was like, I should have one. I should have specified that in the contract there's OT and two, if I hadn't, I should have just like mentioned it right away. So now I'm just, I'm not a confrontational person. Even now, even though like I run a business or whatever, I hate confrontation, but I just have, I like force myself to do it.
I just have to do it because it's just to protect myself and my time. Otherwise, there's also like resentment that comes out and then you start getting like an ugh. It's just like a whole thing. That was a bad lesson.
[00:45:51] Mica: I'd like to say that I am a confrontational person.
[00:45:55] Ren: Good.
[00:45:56] Mica: Except when it comes with clients.
[00:45:58] Ren: Okay. [00:46:00] Not good.
[00:46:00] Mica: When, when it counts. Yeah. When I really need to be. I'm not, and it's, I don't want any unpleasant feelings and I've had to like force myself to say, okay, do you wanna have the uncomfortable conversation now when you can do something about it? Or do you wanna have it down the road when you can't go back in time and fix it?
So,
[00:46:22] Ren: Yeah. And it's always less uncomfortable the sooner you say it, like the sooner you say it, like the quicker you can resolve it and move on. But then like, if you wait until like everything's festering, it just becomes like a much bigger deal. So I just try to like voice everything. I really try. My contract has modified over the years just based off the lessons that I've learned where I'm just like, okay, didn't realize I had to spell this out in painstaking detail, like.
There's a lot of stuff on there that just comes from like the experiences that I've had or the bad experiences, essentially.
[00:46:57] Mica: It's like you make a little note and you're like all my anti [00:47:00] shut to my contract later on.
[00:47:02] Ren: Yeah, yeah. Like there was, I know like a lot of people put in this like force majeure type of C clause in their contract, and I always felt like that was like so intense sounding and I was, no natural disaster is ever gonna happen.
And then during the pandemic, I was on a cookbook shoot and I got COVID and we had to cancel the last two days of the shoot and we were in a studio and I sent an email to the publisher and I was like, we're gonna have to like reschedule it. Like can you guys send an extra $2,000 so I can like rebook the shoot?
And they're like, that's not on us. Like, we sent you the budget and I was like, well, in that case then, if I have to do it at my house, it's just gonna be me and the food stylist and the prop stylist, and like, no one else is invited. The author can't come. Like, no one can come.
And, and they were like, oh, okay. Okay. Like, we'll see what we can do.
[00:47:59] Mica: They're like, no, [00:48:00] we're just kidding.
[00:48:02] Ren: But then it, in the end, it ended up being the studio manager did us a solid and was just, you know what? I'll just give you two days on a weekend later this month. Don't worry about it. And she just, I mean, you know, everyone's human.
Like everyone knows that. It's like hard time. And so it all worked out. But yeah, that was, ever since then, I was just like, okay, I do have to have that clause in here because that responsibility shouldn't fall on me.
[00:48:28] Mica: No. You can't help that. You got COVID. So I wanna close this interview by talking about.
Photo Dump, your podcast. What have you learned about yourself as a host?
[00:48:44] Ren: I think without sounding like self-involved, I feel like the biggest thing that I've learned is how to be a better listener.
I mean, I think we can all be better listeners, and I'm not saying I'm a great listener, but I [00:49:00] do feel as someone who's interviewing, I think it's easy. Like, okay, for example, there was this, so long ago Alec Baldwin had a podcast. Here's the thing. This is like back in the day and like I was a fan of Alec Baldwin.
I thought he was super funny and he had like great guests on, but it was, he had these really interesting people on, but it was all about Alec Baldwin. Like it's just like anytime they answered anything he'd be like, oh yes. Like that reminds me of the time when I was on set and like this whole, and he like goes into this whole thing and I to like irk me so much.
But it was also like kind of entertaining. And I noticed, like I had that tendency when we first started. 'Cause we started it as like, we want it to be really conversational. We want it to be like just to feel like a group of people talking. But even when you're talking with your friends, I noticed, like once I started paying attention to it, it's like oftentimes I'm just like waiting to say my thing instead of just like listening to what the person has to say.
So I feel [00:50:00] like especially once we started bringing in a photographers where we wanted to hear like really specific parts of their story. I have to like keep myself from putting like my story in there 'cause it's like it's not about me. And then also with the editing, the talking over each other was very hard.
'cause I was doing our editing in the beginning and Jennifer and I were constantly talking over each other. And then I had to edit that out because it was hard to hear what was actually being said. And so just by the editing process I was like, I really need to let people finish their sentence. And if someone goes in a different direction, you don't have to interrupt them to like get your point in.
Sometimes there's just not time to get your point in and it's kind of just like picking and choosing. I don't know if that like makes sense. It's helped me.
[00:50:54] Mica: No, no, no, no. That makes perfect sense. That makes perfect sense. [00:51:00] And it's like there are times when I've caught myself doing that too.
I have to catch myself and go, all right girl, mute yourself.
[00:51:09] Ren: And I mean, I think it's just human nature. I think people just wanna be heard. I mean, I think we all have that tendency, but it's interesting when you actually listen to yourself and you have that option.
'Cause most people aren't listening to themselves, like have conversations over and over, so it's just gonna keep going. That was kind of like a frustrating thing to learn. And then I feel like we haven't recorded in a while so it's come back. But I hate how much I say like and I feel when I was editing, it was just so apparent that I did make a conscious effort.
To say like less, but now it's back because we haven't recorded in a while with those filler words. They're the worst, aren't they? And it's weird when you're kind of self editing as you talk, but when you're making an effort to not use certain words, you actually [00:52:00] speak slower and you can be more thoughtful.
So anyway, I feel as though I've learned just how to listen and, and attempt to communicate a little bit better.
[00:52:09] Mica: That's such a great answer. So now that you are picking episodes back up, what has that been like bringing the podcast back?
[00:52:21] Ren: Oh gosh, we are actually, we took another break. It's an interesting, gosh.
I mean, you know, it's, this is like a personal project and it's hard when your real job takes you away and you're busy. I have a co-host, Jennifer Chong. We're both working photographers, so between the two of us, our schedules don't often line up and sometimes it just really starts to feel like a lot of work.
And I'm a semi recent new mom, like my daughter's 17 months old and, and then when we started, Jennifer was in like a brand new mom. So I feel like we kind of pick up this, each other's slack. I [00:53:00] think we really understand when the other person just like can't bring it. And so if we have the ability, we pick up the slack, but eventually it just like certain parts of the year, it just gets crazy.
And we picked it up this year. We, it was like a really slow start to the year, so we're like, we have so much time. We knocked out like eight episodes or something like that.
Not like anything crazy. I think like over the course of like two to three months we knocked out eight episodes and we like to bank stuff because Jennifer really likes to release things on a, like if we say we're gonna release every other Tuesday, we're gonna release every other Tuesday.
I was like, we should do a poll, because some people I think don't care. 'cause I was like, I don't want that pressure. 'Cause sometimes you can't make it happen. Sometimes it's like the night before a shoot and you're like, shit, I forgot to upload this episode, and instead of going to bed, you're like doing the caption and ugh.
Anyway, so I just reached a point this year, I think especially just as I'm, there's [00:54:00] been different phases where something like you get in a routine and things are easy and then things get upended. I just had too much going on with mom life and work life and I was like, you know what? And I was dealing, like I had a lot of like postpartum depression and anxiety and that kind of recovered, but I felt like the anxiety was coming back and I was just like, I just need to take some space.
Basically we, what I like about working with Jennifer is we really are just like so fine with when the other person just can't manage it. And I felt like we were only halfway through the season and I was like, I just need to take a break. Because also when you force something and then it becomes to feel like work and it's no longer this fun passion project on the side, then I feel like.
The audience can pick up on that. I don't know. Or at least I feel like I'm just like forcing it. So we decided to [00:55:00] take a summer break and we should theoretically be getting back into it. But I also feel like the fall winter tends to be busy work-wise. So I don't know when we're gonna start recording.
[00:55:11] Mica: When the time is right.
[00:55:13] Ren: When the time is right. I mean, usually when we take a long enough break, I start to miss it and then I'm like, okay, I feel re-inspired. There's all these things I wanna talk about, like I'm ready to get back into it. And I feel like that's kind of a nice thing with a hobby. I feel like you never wanna force it because then it, you want it to be fun.
[00:55:32] Mica: Yeah. And your listeners will always come back.
[00:55:34] Ren: And you know, even if not everyone comes back, that's okay. I think at one point we were talking about, 'cause we're spending money out of pocket, obviously for an editor and for these platforms. And you know, it adds up. And I think at one point we were discussing like, oh, should we charge some sort of like membership thing?
And we put it together and I literally like asked to bail on [00:56:00] it within a month, 'cause I was like, I don't want that pressure of having to deliver because it's another job that we have a deadline to meet. And if we don't owe anyone anything, then it's gonna gonna be more free. It's just gonna feel more free.
[00:56:17] Mica: I don't know if this feels the same for you, but the minute that money is involved, it really does feel like work. It becomes a job.
[00:56:25] Ren: Oh my God. Yeah. I have this actual story where, this was my very first advertising job that I ever did, and it was kind of, I didn't know what my rate, what my, like an ad rate was.
And it was like stills on a big TV commercial. And the, I was friends with the directors and the directors reached out and they're like, we wanna put you up for this job. What's your rate? So I gave them this, like, whatever, what I thought was a good rate for, you know, three days of work. And they're like, okay, cool.
And then [00:57:00] it turned out that the agency basically took that budget and they were like, we're gonna handle it directly and we're giving the, like, the rate basically tripled per day. And so like all of a sudden I was making it like. So much more money. And I wasn't worried about the job. And then once that number changed, I immediately panicked.
'cause I was like, oh my God, I have to like overdeliver, like I have to go. And it wasn't, I was still doing the same exact thing. Like none of the scope had changed. Like nothing had changed. But I just like the, the money, I don't know, I don't know. Like it just kind of, it freaked me out. I don't like owing people anything.
[00:57:41] Mica: I owe yous. Like, please, please don't. Any of that. You answered this question about what keeps your partnership strong with Jennifer when things get bananas, what's one ritual or system that protects the show and your friendship?
[00:57:59] Ren: I don't know if we [00:58:00] have a ritual, but I think it's just we're really honest with each other.
I think it also helps that we both are doing the, we work in the same industry, so we have the same job. We're both moms. We just like get it. I just feel like we get each other and when someone's like stressed about something, you're like, I get it. Like I'm there with you. I understand like it's not a big deal.
So I think it's just, we don't even have formal check-ins. I think it's just having just like an open door, just communication and just being feeling comfortable to be honest with each other. I think that's honestly the thing. She's just like, she's one of my best friends.
[00:58:37] Mica: How long have y'all been friends?
[00:58:39] Ren: We met virtually through Slack because we've been friends for 10 years. 10 years started out on Slack because we were both working for a food delivery service. I was the New York photographer, she was the LA photographer, and we all had to report to the lead [00:59:00] photographer who was in San Francisco. So we were always on Slack, like sharing photos, asking questions, blah, blah, blah.
And so we became friends just through our little side chats being like, oh my God, this is crazy. Like, whoa, blah, you know, whatever. And then I moved to LA two years after that, and so I was like, Jennifer, I'm here. And yeah, we've been friends ever since 2015 and I'm grateful.
[00:59:26] Mica: What do you love most about your friendship with Jennifer?
[00:59:29] Ren: I think photographers can get so competitive with each other, and I think it's so easy to take losses personally. And I've actually lost some friendships with photographers because. I think like the competition was just like too much. I don't really, I mean, that's a whole other thing, but I'm just very grateful and we've, Jennifer and I have bid against each other on jobs and one person gets it and one person does it, and I'm [01:00:00] just so grateful that that has never, there's never been any hard feelings.
And then the fact that we can like debrief about it with each other is like, we're just so transparent with each other that I feel like she's just like, she's a true friend. Like she's a true friend. That, yeah. I think it's really hard to be friends with fellow, like good friends with fellow photographers for the, because of the nature of the industry and obviously we don't see each other a lot because we're not on set together.
As soon when we do see each other, it's really nice. But we text almost daily, like we literally text each other every day.
[01:00:36] Mica: Those are the best friendships though. It's like, Hey, let's make plans and then, oh shit, life happens. Let's make plans again and it's like, oh no, life happened again. But every day that communication, I agree with you about ha, hard to have friendships with other photographers because of just the competitive nature.
I guess it really depends on the person, but just the way that [01:01:00] people are being pitted against each other. It's sad to see if we all kind of unified a little bit more, then I feel like a lot of things wouldn't go, wouldn't happen. That do happen.
[01:01:11] Ren: Yeah. And I feel like in general, what I really like about the LA photography community is everyone there has been a shift to be more open with each other.
And so I'm friendly with a lot of photographers. Like we'll be at the same parties, like usually the stylists are the unifier, you know? So one of my prop stylist friends, she always has a party and she's obviously friends with all the photographers that she works with. And so, we're hanging out with like the photographers that we're competing against that I like, you know, lose bids with against and it's totally chill and fine and we're like, oh my God, how'd that job go?
Is it as crazy as it sounded in like the pitch? And they're like, yeah, it was bonkers.
[01:01:51] Mica: It's like, girl, be glad you didn't get this one.
[01:01:53] Ren: Yeah, there there's a lot of that.
There's a lot of that. But yeah, so I feel like, or at least I don't know how [01:02:00] it is in other cities, but the LA food photography scene is, feels very like homey and friendly and I like it.
[01:02:09] Mica: It's definitely like that here in Austin, we have a small community of food photographers and I love that we're pretty protective of one another.
[01:02:20] Ren: Yeah. And that's what Jennifer is to me. Like, I feel like we became such good friends because we were at the same point in our careers, like when we started freelancing and doing our own thing.
And so we were constantly being like, what would you do here? Like is this crazy? And that's actually how the podcast was born was we continued that on a daily basis. And my husband was my office. Now it's like the baby's room, but my office was right next to my husband's and he would always hear us talking on the phone, make like talking about like an estimate or a client or whatever, and he's like, you guys should record this.
I feel like people would find it helpful and we're like, really? I don't know, this is just two girls trying to [01:03:00] make it work.
[01:03:01] Mica: Yes, we need more of that. A lot of lessons that I've learned have been from other photographers, but I feel like I get bits and pieces.
[01:03:11] Ren: Well, because people are competitive and they're like, there's only so much information that, I don't know. I feel like the more transparent you are, the more it's gonna help the industry as a whole.
And I think that's why a lot of photographers gets screwed is because there is no union and there is no, like conversa, I mean more so I think they are having these conversations, but there's no, there's no like platform to share all this information. And I feel like that's how clients take advantage of photographers.
They might not be doing it intentionally, but the fact that there's no open dialogue between the photographers, you're just kind of like agreeing to terms that, I don't know, you shouldn't be agreeing to, but you just don't know any better because you're, you can be very isolating to be your one [01:04:00] man, one woman team if you don't have an agent.
If you're like really just working by yourself, it's like you don't have anyone to bounce ideas off of. Experiences off of. And so I think it's really important to just be transparent. I think it just will help the industry instead of, I think it's hindering the industry right now when people are have that like competitive mindset of just like, I'm just gonna gate keep and this, I've worked really hard to learn this stuff and it's my knowledge.
[01:04:27] Mica: I do have one last question. What's inspiring you right now?
[01:04:31] Ren: Oh my God.
I was like, thinking about this. I'm honestly in like a phase. I just had a meeting with my agent like a few months ago and she was like, what are you excited about? And I was like, gosh, I don't know. Like I kind of just wanna get like my mental head space back because like I'm a mom.
But I think something that I didn't realize I was really missing and is just coming from just shooting a lot of ad work is kind of just like. [01:05:00] The looseness and flexibility of editorial shoots where you can kind of be more creative and everything's like less prescribed. 'Cause for ad jobs, everything's just like so flushed out in the pre-production meeting that you're, by the time you get to set, you're just like, okay, I'm creating the plan.
And so I've been trying to do touch shoots that are not like super planned out or I can just like shoot more freely and capture that kind of like more creative energy. And then I just had a meeting with my agent yesterday and just in talking I realized like I'm actually excited about shooting, like working with kids.
'Cause I used to like be really afraid of it. And I, 'cause I didn't know how to relate to kids. Like, I was like, I'm not a kid. Like, I don't know, like they're just kind of scary. And I worked on a bunch of kids shoots before becoming a mom and they've always been like, oh, I just have to do it. And then since becoming a mom, I've had like so much fun with it that I was [01:06:00] like, oh, I think I wanna maybe shoot some more kid related products and work more.
Yeah. I don't know, like it's just something I literally have never thought about until, I just had a shoot recently where the, there's usually like a child wrangler on set that kind of helps with the energy and she was like, okay. And I had to like really step up and I was like, oh wait, I know how to relate to kids now because like I have one.
And I just had so much fun working with kids and I was like, I think I wanna shoot with kids more. So I don't know, it just kind of like fell in, like the realization kind of fell into my lap yesterday and I was like, I think I wanna like put in a little bit of work to get more of these kinds of clients.
[01:06:43] Mica: I love that. I love that.
That sounds exciting.
[01:06:47] Ren: Yeah, it's exciting. I was telling my, my agent yesterday, I was like, oh, like it's exciting because I don't have a ton of experience with it. I've like never put a lot of thought into it. It's always just been [01:07:00] something like, oh, and there's a kid component.
And now if I want to actively pursue it, then the next step is like putting together a test shoot. And you know, there's like, there's certain talent agencies that represent families or like moms and kids or pregnant women. And I think it's just reaching out to them to see if anyone wants to do a test shoot and just building up a portfolio that I don't actually currently have.
So we'll see. It is fun. It's like, it's fun to have like a little goal because I don't feel like I. Once you get into the routine of shooting the thing that you're hired for you, you're like, okay, I'm just doing the thing. I'm doing it 'cause I like it. I'm doing it over and over. But there's nothing like, I'm not learning anything.
Like, I mean, I always learn something from every shoot, but it's not like a new, new hat that I'm gonna, that I've been wearing. So I'm excited to play around with that.
[01:07:49] Mica: So where can the listeners find you admire your work?
All that fun stuff?
[01:07:57] Ren: You can find me on Instagram. My [01:08:00] handle is Ren Fuller or my website, renfuller.com.
And then Photo Dump, which is photo dump.club, is our Instagram handle.
[01:08:10] Mica: Ren, thank you so much for being on the show.
[01:08:15] Ren: Aw. Thank you for having me.
[01:08:19] Mica: This episode is written and produced by me, your host, Mica McCook. Like this episode, give us a five star review on Apple Podcast and subscribe to the Savory Shot wherever you get your podcast.
Or follow me your host, Mica McCook, on Instagram at Mica dot McCook. Or you can follow the podcast on Instagram at a Savory Shot podcast. If you have any questions, comments, or would like to be featured on the show, email us at [01:09:00] podcast@thesavoryshot.com.