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[00:00:00] Mica: Welcome to the 67th episode of the Savory Shot, a podcast about the art and soul of food photography. I'm your host with the most Mica McCook. I'm a food photographer based here in Austin, Texas, where the weather has finally, finally cooled down. Before we dive into today's feast of an episode, I wanna give a shout out to y'all, the listeners.
Thank you for coming back. Episode after episode, y'all come back and y'all show this little podcast so much love. So thank you. And if this is your first time tuning in, welcome to the Hot Mess Express. Thanks for giving the show a listen. I hope you enjoy it and come back [00:01:00] again and give me feedback.
Email me, DM me. I'm always open to suggestions. Now let's talk about today's guest. I'm joined by the phenomenal Kaitlyn Hale. She's a Cleveland based food stylist who treats every plate like a mini art project and every shoot like a stage for storytelling. In today's episode, we're digging into what it means to find your voice as a creative and how Kaitlyn traded contracts in corporate life for a career in food styling.
Y'all, I felt like Kaitlyn and I were and are kindred spirits. We talked about how Kaitlyn went from a burnt out marketing grad with a barely used food blog to building a career that lights her up creatively. [00:02:00] We talk about the quiet friction of finding your voice when you are still learning what that voice even is.
And Kaitlyn talked about how learning to trust her gut even when the room says otherwise, became her superpower. This was one of those conversations that just makes you nod your head and go, yes, yes, yes to all of that. Yes. So whether you are a seasoned pro or still figuring out which end of the camera to point at your plate.
This episode has got something for you. But before we get into all of that, grab your coffee, your notebook, and hey, grab a snack and let's start the show. Welcome to the Savory Shot, a biweekly show [00:03:00] about the art and soul of working in food photography. I'm your host, Mica McCook. Every other Wednesday I sit down to chat with professionals in the industry so that you feast on only the best tips and strategies in the business.
Alright, y'all let's get started.
Katie, I wanna start this interview by thanking you for coming on the Savory Shot, for spending your day off with me, and I'm just excited to have you here and to have you on as a guest. So thank you. Welcome to the show.
[00:03:45] Kaitlyn: Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, happy to be here.
[00:03:49] Mica: Okay, so I wanna start by asking you, what's one thing you've come to deeply value since becoming a [00:04:00] freelancer?
[00:04:00] Kaitlyn: Oh gosh. So I think one thing is just like the ability to find your voice as a freelancer and as a creative. At first, I was just trying to get any job as anyone does. When you start in freelancing, you're like, I'll do anything. I'll take any amount of money. I just want to get my foot in the door. But as I've built my career over the last like 10 plus years, I think developing my voice and finding my voice as a stylist and figuring out my strengths and what I really enjoy doing has been so beneficial to me in my career, and has allowed me to find people that I really wanna work with who have similar values and approaches to their work. That's been really fun as part of this journey, I didn't think necessarily that was something that would come in this career.
[00:04:55] Mica: Hmm.
Yes. You get to [00:05:00] build relationships and go, you know what? I really like you and I wanna work on projects with you, and it just makes it even that much more fulfilling and beautiful. It just, your days are long, but they're not long days.
[00:05:14] Kaitlyn: Yeah, like our days are still be really fun.
I have to look at what I do. Like I'm a food stylist. It's a pinch me like job and it's also like I'm playing with food all day. Truly. I take it very seriously, but what I do is not that serious. And then getting to do it surrounded by people you really enjoy is just like all the better. We get to have a lot of fun and make fun snacks in the kitchen and getting to do all of those little side things makes the job that much better when it's surrounded by people you really enjoy being around.
[00:05:52] Mica: Absolutely. Let me ask this, your background into getting into food styling, was that something that you [00:06:00] knew right away that you wanted to do or did you come from a traditional workplace?
[00:06:07] Kaitlyn: So I went to school for business marketing and entrepreneurship. So I always knew I wanted to do something like in the creative realm.
I also like minored in art, like studio art.
[00:06:22] Mica: That makes so much sense.
[00:06:24] Kaitlyn: Yeah. I knew I wanted to do something creative. I knew I wanted to kind of run my own business, so to speak, and I just didn't know what that was going to be. I thought for a long time I wanted to be a wedding planner. I love events. I love tablescapes, I love floral design, set design, like all of that really like fills my bucket creatively.
So I thought I wanted to do that. And then I worked for a wedding planner for about four years, and it's a lot more like emailing than I thought it was gonna be like and contracts and [00:07:00] it just wasn't as creatively fulfilling as I thought it would be.
And so then after graduation, I was kind of like, oh no, what am I gonna do? I had started kind of like a little food blog. It was not good. And I probably posted six recipes on it. But through that, I found a job with a like startup in Cleveland that was basically doing like what Uber Eats does now, where we were partnering with local businesses or local restaurants, the biggest chef names in Cleveland.
And they were creating meals for us. And then they would package it in our packaging, and then we would go and pick it up, and then we had our own refrigerators, and then we would deliver those meals. And so every meal had microwave and oven reheating instructions. We had ingredient lists and chef write-ups.
And so I was doing all of that for this company and then also [00:08:00] photographing and styling all of their meals. And I loved the photography and styling aspect of it. And then I started reading interviews with people who were actual food stylists and I was like, oh wait, this is like an actual job. I could actually do this.
And then, I mean, I absolutely hated this job, so it was kind of the worst. My boss is just not very nice. And so I lasted there for about a year and I could tell the company was not doing well and I was kinda like, okay, I could either go and like find another job, or I could lean into this thing that I really like and go backwards a bit in my career and take an internship.
I started interning with a photo studio in Cleveland that sadly just closed, but they had like three kitchens throughout their studio and they shot with like Smuckers and Nestle. 'Cause both Smuckers and Nestle are like [00:09:00] based in the Cleveland area. And so like Nestle obviously has a million brands and so does Smuckers.
They would shoot for other food brands like they shot for Red Lobster at the time. And so I was just getting exposed to food stylists being, exposed to different brands and I ended up really being drawn to the kitchen. Through that internship I kind of started assisting a bit. As you probably know, the assisting life trying to get to a stylist role is a four or five year process of trying everything.
So I was teaching cooking classes at Sur La Table, I was doing craft services, so there was like a movie that shot in Cleveland and I did craft services on it for a month. I would cater for large photo shoots where it was like 35 people in the studio. I would make breakfast and lunch for everybody. And it was just like throwing myself into all of [00:10:00] these different situations where I could learn, I could create some contacts.
And eventually that spawned into assisting full-time. And so I started assisting full-time and did that for about two years. Then went freelance as just a food stylist. So it was definitely a process to get there, but I look back very fondly at all of those memories because I do think that all of those smaller experiences do help you become just a much more well-rounded stylist in the end.
[00:10:36] Mica: Do you think you would've discovered like the value of surrounding yourself with people, and all the lessons that you've learned over the years as a freelancer, do you think you would've discovered any of that if you'd had stayed in in a traditional job?
[00:10:53] Kaitlyn: Yeah. I could never really picture myself like in an office setting.
[00:10:58] Mica: It's the worst. Don't do it. [00:11:00]
[00:11:00] Kaitlyn: Yeah. I don't know if it's like not being diagnosed with maybe some ADHD in there.
I cannot sit still at a desk and, and I learned that very quickly and I love how every day is different in my job, even if I'm working with the same client, we're shooting different food, we're shooting a different campaign, and so there's always something fun and different and there's new people that you get to meet and all of that like kind of dynamicness of this job.
It's just so much more fun than going into an office every day and with the same people. The beautiful thing I think about working with food, it's endless. Like there is always something more that you can learn and whether it's a new cooking technique or a new cuisine, there's so many routes you can take through food, and that is part of why I think every day is [00:12:00] so fun.
Because one day I could be styling this like super chef driven like tablescape. The next, I could be doing something like very commercial for like a burger company. So getting to kind of have like little art projects every day is kind of like the way I look at it, it's like, oh, this little burger, it's like a mini art project, and then I'm gonna finish that.
I'm gonna get that approved and then I'm gonna go to the next sandwich and it's the next little art project. I think of like every shot as like, what is the story behind this? And like some things where you're shooting it on a white background, obviously you're not gonna feel that way about.
But anything involving a tablescape or any environment, you're thinking, okay, who is sitting down to this meal? Or who is sitting down in this bar setting and what are they gonna be ordering? And it could go like. I work with this set stylist pretty often and we'll be like, okay, what's the story behind this?
So we'll be like, okay, [00:13:00] it's a hotel bar and this couple is coming in. And then we're like, and they're having a torrid affair. And we'll just like go into stitches on set, like, Oh, this like whole elaborate storyline of, okay, these people are sitting down at this meal. But it helps you like go into that environment and think, okay, really what are they going to be eating?
If it's a restaurant bar, where is that restaurant located? What kind of food do they specialize in? What's the clientele like? And all of those decisions will then push me into a good route to take with the food styling. And that'll take her in a good route with the set styling. And it might help the photographer with their lighting or with like a background, they choose.
All of those things. I think, I think it is very powerful that we are trusted to tell these stories for these brands that are trying to get, get their stories across. [00:14:00]
[00:14:00] Mica: Mm. I think you might have been or could be a playwright in another career, 'cause I mean, those are all the things that playwrights think about whenever they're writing a show. It's brilliant that that's your approach.
That's what makes an image really stand out, are the little teeny tiny details that no one can think about. Like the creator thinks about little things. To really create a moment. There's someone out there who's either experiencing that moment that you just created, or they have experienced, or they want to experience that moment that you just created, and they feel so much more drawn and connected to that than they would to just an average photo.
[00:14:47] Kaitlyn: Well, it's like finding the ethos, the feeling in any image. It's like, what is whatever brand trying to get across? Are they trying to get across that? Like this is a yogurt that you're eating on the go. [00:15:00] Is it a yogurt that you're, you're savoring this beautiful like morning brunch and having a yogurt with like a beautiful coffee, like in a beautiful.
Outdoor setting is it you're grabbing coffee from Starbucks and it's all about the drive-through experience, so there's like so many different points that you can look at. Something as simple as yogurt and you can tell a million different stories with it. And so deciding like what is our story going to be?
Or usually the brand telling us what the story is going to be and then creating those little moments. I think that is something that's so beautiful about food because you can't help but have an emotional connection to it. It sustains us, it fuels us. I mean there are certain people I've met who are like, I would drink all of my calories and never eat anything, and I just think, what a boring life.
Yes, I want all the stories and I [00:16:00] want all of those experience.
[00:16:02] Mica: Absolutely. Absolutely. I see people like that and I'm like, so what do you do with your time? I don't know. I don't even know if we can have a conversation after this.. I wanna ask you this, 'cause we're talking about building a scene. When you are building a scene with your set stylist and you guys are like thinking about storylines and what's happening in this moment, how does color guide your decisions?
Or does it guide it at all?
[00:16:32] Kaitlyn: I think sometimes color will guide it, color and texture, like especially within a dish. And a lot of times, like I will have a dish in mind, or from a set stylist perspective, we may have to shoot in a bowl that they have chosen or that the client wants to showcase. I work with a couple clients who are like dishware and [00:17:00] glassware companies, and so we're like trying to show off their product.
So it's almost less about the food. And so in like those instances, we'll say like, okay, this is kind of the story. This is like where the setting is, what colors are going to really bring out the colors in this dishware? What's gonna compliment nicely? But then I like to think about texture. Shape a lot as well.
And so like how do you kind of build the three together to showcase the shape of a plate or a bowl? Whether the bowl has a really deep well, you might want to do something to highlight that, or the facets in a glass, you may choose to do something more translucent or more cloudy based on the way you want the light to shine through.
And so I think everything is a big collaboration between the stylists, the food stylist, the set stylist, and the photographer. And [00:18:00] I love working in collaboration with, with those people. So it's always really fun to kind of creatively approach.
[00:18:08] Mica: It's called the T tripod, the trifecta, what are they called?
The trifecta?
[00:18:11] Kaitlyn: Yeah, the trifecta.
[00:18:15] Mica: You mentioned earlier that you had a minor in art and I got so excited because I called it when I first found your website, I immediately thought, oh, this is like fine art. This belongs, like, her styling is something that I would see in a Dutch painting and like I just immediately felt drawn to that.
'cause that's what I'm obsessed with. So with that being said, is there an artist or art movement that you secretly or not so secretly channel whenever you're styling?
[00:18:56] Kaitlyn: Sometimes I feel like I'm not intending it, but it kind of turns out that way. [00:19:00] I love art history. Art history was one of my favorite classes in in college. And then my color theory was another class that I just love.
And so I do think like drawing on, you know, artists that I love, I wouldn't say there's one particular like artist or like time period. I mean, I love the Impressionists. I love, I mean, Van Gogh is amazing, but I am just as obsessed with modern art and photography and design and architecture. And so I do kind of take like all of those influences and kind of pick and choose.
Also just like regular everyday people, I'm like the queen of screenshotting things. And so I will screenshot my heart away, like on Instagram or on Pinterest. I obviously have like saved Pinterest boards and saved Instagram boards and things like that. But I'll screenshot kind of anything that inspires [00:20:00] me.
And then when it comes time to do like a test shoot or something that's a little bit more creative, then I'll pull some of those images. It could be a book cover that I love or a storyline that I kind of wanna follow in like food form. So yeah, it's really fun to get to do like those very creative, more studio art type projects along with everything else that I do.
[00:20:25] Mica: What's something totally random outside of food that influences the way you style a dish?
[00:20:33] Kaitlyn: Oh gosh. I would say it's kind of like connected with food, but I am part of a cookbook club I've always loved cookbooks.
It's something like from a really young age, I've always loved editorial like magazines, Martha Stewart and Real Simple. I was seven years old and like telling my mom like, we must make this Easter cake on [00:21:00] Martha Stewart's cookbook, or like her magazine cover. I was, I must make this. And so I've always just like loved doing things like from cookbooks.
And then I started this cookbook club and that has really inspired me to like style things in like a much more relaxed way and like lived in way. And I love just looking at cookbooks and how people like put them together and what ingredients are, like their must have items in their pantry and, and different techniques.
And so, I mean, I have probably over a hundred cookbooks and so whenever we get together, I think that's one of the most deeply inspiring things. The three girls that I have the cookbook club with, one is a food stylist, one is food photographer, and one is a producer for a food studio. And so it's two food stylists, a photographer and a producer.
It's kind of like the perfect [00:22:00] amalgamation of just like I have my girls who like are just like some of my best friends and we get to cook and then like I also my best friend since childhood, she and I love to cook and like that is how we spend our time. So it's definitely not something other than food, but enjoying food in like a different way than just onset creating an image I feel like just leads to so much more joy around food, which I think just like bleeds into your work.
[00:22:32] Mica: That's a lot of cookbooks. Over a hundred cookbooks. That's a lot of cookbooks.
[00:22:37] Kaitlyn: I know. It's a sickness. It's a sickness.
[00:22:41] Mica: No, no.
[00:22:42] Kaitlyn: I'll not be cured.
[00:22:44] Mica: You need more cookbooks. Yeah. One can never have too many cookbooks.
[00:22:52] Kaitlyn: There's still a couple blank spaces on my shelves. So until those are totally filled.
[00:22:58] Mica: My dream house is [00:23:00] like wall to wall books, and then on the other side, wall to wall coffee mugs.
[00:23:07] Kaitlyn: Oh, yes.
[00:23:09] Mica: And then like a big old like wall space just for cookbooks. Like I just want a giant wall space for cookbooks.
I love the idea of a cookbook club. Whose idea was it?
[00:23:21] Kaitlyn: It was technically my idea. I had read an article years and years ago about it and I was like, this would be really fun.
And then I just started like pitching it to different friends. And these three friends are just kind of like the perfect three people to do it with. You know, we're all in the industry. We all love food, we all love sitting down to a meal together. And three of us, well we've all worked together like at different points in our careers and so we know, like we work really well in a kitchen together.
Claire, the other food stylist, she and I have been in a kitchen together, [00:24:00] like for, I mean, you could probably count up like years at this point instead of days. Laura is like the greatest organizer in the world. She's a producer, and then she also kind of produces us while we're doing it.
So she will say, okay, you're working on this, you're working on this, you're working on this. And then Megan, she doesn't have as much experience in the kitchen, but she's a great cook. She is always taking photos of our meal before we sit down. Like she's always the one getting the shots. She's like taking all the shots of us, like, wow, we're prepping food.
And so we try to meet up like once a month. It doesn't always work out. And we'll choose a cookbook based on either, like something that's coming out that we're really excited about, or. Or it's a cookbook that we've had for a lot of years and we haven't made anything from it. So like our first cookbook, which still like goes down in cookbook club [00:25:00] lore, was Andy Baraghani from Bon Appetit.
His cookbook, I think it's called like The Cook You Are or something like that. It goes down in complete lore. We kind of refer to it as like our Bible.
Like we say like what would Andy do? We love, like the way he uses like tons of herbs. And I would say it's like very close to like our personal like cooking style and ethos. But we've done like restaurant cookbooks, so we've done like Bestia from LA and Heartwood, which is this restaurant in Tulum. We've done both of their cookbooks.
We've done Molly Baz and Alison Roman, Melissa Clark. So it's like a lot of heavy hitters. And then, we did one with Eden Grish Pan, I think is how you pronounce her last name. And her second book just came out. And so [00:26:00] we're already talking about how great the first one was and how we wanna do the second cookbook.
Once we've kind of figured out a, a book, then we'll also decide like, okay, what kind of time is best. And so like we've done brunch cookbooks and done it like at brunch time, but most of them are dinners. We'll choose a person's house and all four of us are comfortable hosting.
And so we'll choose a house, we'll choose a time, and then whoever is hosting will have that cookbook and go through and choose. We try to choose between four and six recipes based on like how big they are. Usually we'll try to do a protein, a salad and like two other vegetable sides. And then if there's like a cool dessert or a cool drink that we wanna try or like a cool appetizer, we'll like do one of those.
So we've made ice creams and sorbet and we've, we made [00:27:00] homemade pasta, we've grilled, we've done all sorts of things. And so it's just so fun, like getting to try new things and then. For example, like  Andy Baraghani had this scallop recipe that I know Claire and I have both done like iterations of in our own styling work because we're just like, this dish was so beautiful, I wanna recreate it.
Sometimes it's just trying a really great different dish that you might not think you would enjoy or it's a different way of preparing something and then that will inform your work later down the road.
[00:27:39] Mica: Oh my God, am right. All right. I'm flying to Cleveland. I'm joining y'all's book club.
[00:27:46] Kaitlyn: Yes. Join us. Join us.
[00:27:49] Mica: I think I can handle once a month flying back and forth for the cookbook club. I wanna be a part of this so much.
[00:27:59] Kaitlyn: [00:28:00] It's so funny because like people ask to be a part of it and we're like, okay, significant others like aren't allowed to be a part of it.
You're not allowed. But the significant others will pop up at the end of the meal and you're like, you can have the last of the food after we've all had like seconds and thirds, then you can have food or like, we'll save a little dessert for you. But like, that's it. Except every year around the holidays we'll do one meal where everyone will invite someone.
And so usually it's like a significant other or a good friend. And so then we'll like go really all out. And so this past year we did a hot pot, like Szechuan Hot Pot, and we had like tons of different like dippers and we made our hot pot base from scratch and it was so epic and amazing. It was very cool.
I mean we just love doing stuff like that. We're very extra.
[00:28:56] Mica: I love that though. I love that though. And what I, [00:29:00] what I love is that in addition to like doing, cooking these recipes together, you are also kind of doing like test shoots.
[00:29:10] Kaitlyn: Yeah.
[00:29:11] Mica: Everyone gets to practice their trade still, but it's done in a much less like, stressful environment.
And, and it just, it reminds you, this is why I do this, this is why I love this. Because of moments like this. I also think moments like that, you get to break whatever rules that are in place if there's such a thing and you just get to play and experience.
So with that being said, what's a styling habit or rule that you secretly love breaking? It's not a secret once you tell it though. Just so you know.
[00:29:50] Kaitlyn: When I saw this question, the thing that I immediately thought of, there's a client that I shoot for and they don't like seeing the ends of pasta [00:30:00] noodles.
[00:30:01] Mica: What?
[00:30:03] Kaitlyn: This is so specific, but they do like a lot of pasta. It's for like a large restaurant chain. And they have in like their notes, they don't like to see the ends of the pasta noodles. Like they think it looks like too messy or something. And this has been like, since I started with this company, like it's always been this way.
And then the last shoot I had with them, they, they were like, okay, we're doing Bucatini now. We're gonna have to show some ends. So you can tell that it's bucatini because Bucatini has like a little hole through the noodle. And let me tell you, I was so thrilled to expose like two noodle ends in this pasta dish.
I was like, this is what I live for. Just breaking those rules. So that's of course the one that I could think of, like right off the rip. It's just like, oh yeah, those like little silly, little like brand guideline rules. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna push this [00:31:00] just a little bit and let me tell you, there is a lot of discussion about those noodles.
[00:31:07] Mica: That's such a strange rule.
[00:31:10] Kaitlyn: Yeah. There's a lot of discussion on set about those two exposed ends. So
[00:31:19] Mica: I bet whoever like wrote the brand guidelines, they were like sweating and they're like, oh my God, I think God, I am pushing this. The,
We're seeing the ends of some pasta.
[00:31:31] Kaitlyn: So it's like things like that where you just, this is when you really have to laugh and say like, I love my job because this is the kind of stuff that is just making you crack up in the middle of the day.
[00:31:43] Mica: Exactly.
And that cracks me up so much. Do you think more stylists should trust their gut over the rules? And if so, why?
[00:31:58] Kaitlyn: I think a [00:32:00] lot of things come into play.
One thing is having like some trust between yourself and the client. Like I wouldn't do that on my first shoot with a client by any means because they don't know me, they don't know what I'm trying to do. And so the first few times I'll play by their rules and then once they get to know me, if there's something where I'm like, okay, realistically like this cheese wouldn't pull or it would act this way instead of this way.
In a real setting, you can start to have those conversations with your clients and be like, look, you know, you and I both know this isn't real, so like, let's try to make it look a little bit more real. And sometimes they'll be really open to that and sometimes it's a conversation between the photographer and you before you bring it up to a client.
But yeah, by and large, I think once you as a food stylist has more food knowledge than someone in marketing for a food company, they [00:33:00] do start to like trust you and trust your instincts with things.
[00:33:04] Mica: Oh, for sure. Has your relationship with rules evolved as you've grown in your career?
[00:33:12] Kaitlyn: Just in general, like my career is kind of like a big rule break in general. Like I did not think I would be doing something like this. Every one in my family has had very traditional careers and you know, have had like a very clear like through line of like, okay, we're gonna do these five steps and then we're gonna have this corporate job, and then we're gonna have this corporate job until we retire.
[00:33:41] Mica: And then you show up and you're like, I'm a food stylist.
[00:33:44] Kaitlyn: And they're like, what's that? So you take photos of food? And I'm like, no, no, no. 10 years later, no, I'm not taking the photos. No. [00:34:00] But it's really cool getting to break those rules. Now I do hope, like I inspire other people to break rules and to break, like kind of what they thought they were going to do in their life.
I think it's so fun to train new people now and like bring them into this industry. So I'm kind of teaching other people to break the rules a little bit now, where I have an assistant that I've worked with for a couple years and he's a very regimented guy and I think he easily could have gone down like a restaurant path, but now he's in this different career and he's like, I would never go back.
Like, this is so much more fun and creative and you make better money and you have better hours. And I'm like, yeah, come to the table. Sit down. Let's have some fun.
[00:34:55] Mica: Yes. You mentioned about like your career just being [00:35:00] one big giant rule break and how everyone in your family has had traditional jobs. I connected so much with that because in my family it pretty much is the same way.
And I did the college thing and I got the traditional job and it sucked. And then when I did get into freelancing, my mindset was like, well, what do you have to lose at this point?
Like you already did the traditional job, you didn't like it, so what harm could there be?
[00:35:31] Kaitlyn: And you can always go back to it. It's always gonna be there.
[00:35:34] Mica: Exactly. It's always gonna be there. I've had some friends that did try freelancing photography and they realized, this is not for me. Like I love the creativity, but I don't like the business side of it.
[00:35:46] Kaitlyn: That's totally valid.
Like the inconsistencies with paychecks, like having to kind of spend some money to make some money. All of those things. A lot of people are not comfortable with taking [00:36:00] that amount of risk with their livelihoods, and I totally understand that. But when you're, I mean, at least like for an assistant or for me, like I was 25, it was kind of like, I have nothing to lose at this point in my life.
Like, I'm gonna go down this other path and if it doesn't work out, you know, I have a degree I can fall back on. But if I don't do this, I'm always gonna regret it. And I'm always gonna think, what if.
[00:36:26] Mica: You're always gonna wonder. Yeah. Yeah. And I think what makes our millennial generation different from our predecessors is that a lot of us do follow that traditional path.
And we realize, A, it sucks and we don't like it, but as opposed to our previous generations, we didn't just, we're not just staying in this shit. You spend the majority of your day at your job, if you don't like your job and you don't like the people [00:37:00] that you work with, that means you are unhappy eight to nine hours of your day, like that's your whole day of being unhappy. And then you multiply that times five days a week, and then on the weekends you're just dreading going back to work the following Monday.
So it's like you're just constantly unhappy and it's like, why should you sit in that? Why should you accept that?
[00:37:23] Kaitlyn: And you're also bringing the negative energy of not liking your job into every evening that you spend with your loved ones. It does tend to just feed this like negative cycle of like, I'm miserable at my job.
You're kind of just miserable to a certain extent.
[00:37:38] Mica: Yeah. Yeah, you're just walking with this gray cloud over you, like constantly over you, and without realizing it or intending to, you're putting that over everyone else's heads too, and we're just not sitting in that.
[00:37:54] Kaitlyn: I was like a sophomore in high school when the 2008 financial crash happened.
And so at that [00:38:00] point, I was, no one, nothing is secure going and getting this education, but there's no guarantee that some corporate job is gonna keep me even I could get laid off. It's like the economy goes bad, like, and it is a risk being in a job, a freelance career if something happens financially again.
But I would rather risk that, and everybody's gotta eat during COVID when a lot of things went badly. I mean, food companies were shooting crazy and so everybody's gotta eat all the time. And those dollars keep getting put toward those ad dollars.
[00:38:44] Mica: Then CPG brands, they whew, they were like throwing cash everywhere.
[00:38:51] Kaitlyn: Yeah. And so you might feel it for six months, but then it's gonna rebound and you might do even better than you would've [00:39:00] in a normal year. So, you know, you can never really plan it out.
[00:39:04] Mica: Folks who decide and learn about themselves that they don't like the the up and down nature of freelancing that they need stability, I think that's super brave of them to realize that and to own that and go with it.
Because the up and down it really, it's stressful.
[00:39:25] Kaitlyn: It is. Yeah.
[00:39:26] Mica: It can be stressful and like when I talk to people who are like curious about what it's like to be a freelancer. And I tell them, you know, it really feels every month is so different. One month it's like nothing and then the next few months it's like feast. And I got shoot, shoot shoots and then two months will go by and then I have no work. And so it's like constantly just up and down, up and down, up and down. Some years are better, some are like real scary. You do have to like gas yourself up in [00:40:00] those moments. And when it's like a pang in the soul when someone asks you, Hey, how's business going?
How's work going? And you have to say,
and so that is stressful. That is a stressful thing.
[00:40:15] Kaitlyn: Well I think it's also, we take our jobs so personally too because it is us kind of selling ourselves in a way. When you do have those slow times. It's very natural to be like, it's something that I've done wrong when so much of it is just like things are going on with whatever company and they're like going in a different direction for like an ad campaign or like, or there's like a company is having trouble getting a product and so they're gonna push the job for a month.
But you just for some reason think like it is all me and I fall into that trap so much.
[00:40:55] Mica: It was definitely in 2023 where I was really considering. Asking myself, what [00:41:00] is keeping me here?
What is keeping me in this place? Out of everything that you've gone through, ups, downs, what part of this career journey has stretched you the most? It can be personally, it can be professionally. What was something you had to let go of in order to like really step into every new chapter that you found yourself in?
[00:41:23] Kaitlyn: Honestly, the biggest thing that I've learned is having like true confidence in yourself and your abilities. I am not a self-promotional person. Like I hate it. I get anxiety about sending an email saying like, I wanna work with you. I do not like to promote myself in any way. And I'm very shy. And so going into an industry like this where so much of whether or not you're successful is how much you can promote yourself is such a big thing.
A big part of not feeling comfortable promoting myself [00:42:00] was a self-confidence thing. And I've gained so much self-confidence through this job, and especially now that I am a lead stylist and making all of the big decisions myself. You learn to really trust yourself and trust your instincts.
That was something I really had a hard time with for a long time. But I'll still have those moments of like a little bit of doubt if like, I have a, like a rough shoot or you're just like, okay, I did all of this. Then something happened on the shoot and you just didn't feel that great about it.
Also I have moments where it's hard to separate myself from that. But in those times I've learned it's better to push into my own creativity and my own voice, 'cause usually if I'm in like that mood of not feeling super confident, it's usually from a point [00:43:00] where I'm doing a lot of commercial work. So I'll like find a day or two in my schedule and I'll reach out to of photo.
I have a group of photographers that I would reach out to and say like, Hey, would you wanna do like a test shoot? And that really gets me out of my head. It really allows you to get into a very creative space where you're only creating for yourself and for the photographer who's with you. Whenever I'm able to do that, I find it much easier to snap back into like, oh, okay, I am, I am good at my job.
I do really enjoy this and am good at this. I just did a test shoot last week 'cause I had some time free up on my schedule and just like, let's just shoot some sandwiches. Let's just do, this. Wasn't anything crazy, but we did a couple different sandwich shots and now we both have them for our polios and we have something that we can push on social [00:44:00] media and that may lead to work down the road and it may not.
And if it doesn't, I still feel more fulfilled than I did had I not done that job.
[00:44:11] Mica: Katie, you were speaking some gospel about confidence. I was like snapping my fingers. I was like, yes. Yes. Oh my God, yes. Yeah, I just bow my hands down because confidence is such a struggle for me. And one of my goals for 2024 was to work on my self-esteem and to like build myself up and fill my own cup and, and not look for external sources of fulfillment.
Because I realized that if I did that, if I relied on outside sources to feel good about myself, that I would never, ever, ever truly feel good about me and feel like I have anything worth offering.
So I love that you really touched on that.
[00:44:58] Kaitlyn: It's also like [00:45:00] when you do have a lag in work where like, I can look at my calendar and be like, oh my God, I'm not booked for the next two weeks.
Like, what am I gonna do? And I just know myself. I know my mind will just spiral that because I'll see on social media that other people at other studios across the country are working. And I'm like, oh my God, but I'm not. And so then it's like, okay, let me just schedule a test shoot, because then I'll still be in that creative mindset and I'll get a little something out of it in the form of some images.
And then it's also just, yeah, not keeping yourself distracted enough where you're not letting those voices like take over.
And I will also say it's, I am not a pro at that. I. Two weeks ago, I was probably like, everything is going to hell. Like I have those moments all the time and I'm acting like I'm [00:46:00] some expert in getting over it and I'm definitely not.
But I have learned having a creative outlet outside of whatever job that I'm booked on is always a helpful thing for me. So like gardening or having a cookbook club to plan, all of those little things help distract me in slow moments.
[00:46:20] Mica: Mm, I love that. I love that so much. Oh my gosh. I'm loving this conversation so much.
[00:46:27] Kaitlyn: Me too. Gosh. Same.
[00:46:32] Mica: I wanna close out this interview with asking for the kind of advice that you wouldn't find on Google.
I mean, this is the kind of lessons that you only learn by living it, building it, staying with it. What advice would you give to a stylist who's talented but struggling to get traction? I know confidence is one of them. What other advice would you give to them in this moment?
[00:46:58] Kaitlyn: So I [00:47:00] think a big thing that's been beneficial in my career, I've worked with this one studio in Cleveland and done a quite a lot of work with them.
And one of the two owners would sit down with stylists and he would go over their portfolios and this is very much like back to my studio art days of doing critiques. And so he would have you critique their website with their portfolio and he would just go through each image and you would have to say something that you didn't like about every one of his images that like they are selling their studio on.
And then he would kind of do the same for me and like poke holes in my portfolio of like, okay, I see you have this splash here, but this splash could be so much better if it was more exaggerated. If you were to replace an image in your portfolio, you [00:48:00] should replace this image and get a stronger image of a splash.
He would also help me think about the way that my portfolio was laid out and the way images would flow into each other and how you don't want a ton of overhead images, one right after another, how you should switch up the angle or throw in a macro image or throw in a tablescape. And that was so beneficial to me to not only like look at my own portfolio, but to tear someone else's apart because his kind of point in it all was everyone has what they like and your creating your own taste by kind of tearing down our stuff.
And also he'll do the same with my stuff and he could point to my portfolio and be like, okay, you have one burger image and it's very commercial. Let's get like a very editorial [00:49:00] burger on your portfolio somewhere where it's more something you would see in a magazine or it's really exaggerated and first of all, that you trust.
So I would go to like someone that you collaborate with on a semi-regular basis, just sit down with them and be like, Hey, can I take you out for a drink? Or Can I take you out for a coffee and can you just look over my portfolio? I want to know what you see when you look at this. And then those people also have some of the best advice for a company that you wouldn't have even thought you should shoot or test for.
And they could see something in your portfolio and be like, Hey, this image is really great. Why don't you do a series and then you can present that series to this coffee brand, let's say. Coming out with those little ways of finding ways to build your portfolio and also finding ways to like almost pigeonhole yourself a little bit.
I would say like [00:50:00] every food stylist kind of knows how to do everything, but they excel in certain areas and so like some people may excel doing a very beautiful chef driven tablescape and some may do great with commercial burgers or lasagna and like big cheese pulls. Everyone has their own little subset that they are really, really, really good at and where they find a lot of joy.
And so following those little pathways can sometimes help bring new opportunities around. I love to shoot ice cream, and I know a lot of stylists hate to do ice cream, and I find it so fun.
[00:50:45] Mica: Can I bring you to Texas?
[00:50:47] Kaitlyn: Yes, please.
[00:50:50] Mica: Now that I know that you like styling ice cream, I'm like, yes. Yes. Oh my God, yes.
[00:50:56] Kaitlyn: I love fighting with dry ice and having things [00:51:00] be the right temperature. And I love the meltiness and I love like all the texture you can create with ice cream. None of my friends who are stylists, all of them are like, I hate ice cream. Why do you like it? You're so crazy. Like crazy. I'm like, I know.
I know. I'm crazy. But I do really like it
[00:51:19] Mica: Because of the challenges that ice cream presents to you.
[00:51:23] Kaitlyn: Exactly. Yeah.
And so you just have to like follow those little creative pathways. If someone is at a standstill, having someone come in that has an outside perspective and has no skin in the game for your career, they can say like, Hey, this is what you're missing.
Follow this, do a test shoot around it. And then if it's a photographer that you reached out to, they might also want to do that test shoot. And so you can create those little opportunities and then that will eventually snowball into something bigger.
[00:51:56] Mica: It's such a vulnerable thing to [00:52:00] approach someone and say, help me, please help me see what I'm not seeing.
In photography school we did the critiquing as well. Like everybody put their work up and I loved. It's like critiquing session. I loved it because I'm like, please don't tell me that this is a perfect photo. Please don't tell me that this is a great photo. Please don't tell me that there's nothing to be improved.
I don't wanna hear any of that because that's not gonna help me. But there were some classmates of mine who absolutely detested it and they took it so personal that they took it as a personal attack.
We were attacking their character. And it's like, we're not, we're doing this because we care about you and we want you to like be successful. And the ones who are like open to constructive criticism and would take everything that they were told and apply it to their next shoot, to their next project, they improved as photographers and they're like killing it right now in the game. And the ones who are not open to it, who got defensive, who talked over everybody who [00:53:00] interrupted people and came up with excuses and took it personal, they're doing the same shit and they're not like growing as artists.
Their work looks absolutely the same since like day one.
[00:53:12] Kaitlyn: Yeah. Well, and I think as creatives, the last thing we wanna do is be stagnant in our career.
Like we always wanna be moving, we always wanna be like trying something different and just asking for those outside perspectives like allows you to go in all of those different directions. I'll also say, if you are working with a client on set, you're being critiqued every day, every time those clients and they do not give a shit.
I mean I've been in like the most wild critique sessions where you're like, say what now? Like, do you want what?
And, and you're like, okay, we okay.
And so having like the opportunity to have kind of a nicer critique from someone who like does care [00:54:00] about your career and, and who wants to see you improve just as much as you want to improve, I think finding those people and that is a difficult thing to do.
I don't think everybody has that person.
[00:54:14] Mica: Yes. Find that person who can actually give construct, 'cause that's the other thing. There's a book that I, I have yet to buy, but I, I want to, and I wanna read it, but it's like, how to give constructive criticism. Lemme find the book.
[00:54:31] Kaitlyn: Yeah. It's like finding the right person to give you that criticism.
The freelance community in Cleveland is amazing and a lot of the photo assistants and food stylists and, and different people set stylists would get together and we would do portfolio reviews of like 10 portfolios and we would just put our websites up, like on a TV or on a big computer and we would just go through them.
Or way back in the day when I was first starting, some of them [00:55:00] were printed and you would lay them out like on a big table and then you would like walk through and look and even if it's 10 different people in your industry who all work on these types of shoots together, they will all have different opinions and different knowledge of different brands and different photographers that they might work with outside of however you know them.
And so maybe if a food stylist is having some trouble and like need some traction, have five to 10 freelance people that you know from the industry. They don't have to be super closely like related to you, but have like 10 people to a coffee shop or have 10 people to a photo studio or to your house and just sit down and everyone will benefit from it.
And then you're also exposing all of those people to your work. And so I think it's like always beneficial no matter what.
[00:55:57] Mica: Yes, yes. It's definitely with people that [00:56:00] you trust. It's definitely people that are artists in their own sense, and they know what to look out for. They know what questions to ask.
Those are the type of people that like you need to surround yourself with, and you're all there to like help each other grow.
So I love everything that you said about that. There's like a couple of books that I read about constructive feedback and how to give it.
Maybe just, this really comes from my like traditional job role. I worked as a it was a glorified office manager at a physical therapy clinic. But you do the one-on-ones and they tell you how you're doing and where you can improve. And you know, I had bosses that were wonderful about giving me feedback, how I can improve in my job.
And then I had some bosses that just sucked and they were terrible. And I'd walk outta that office and I'm like, whatever bad thing is meant to happen to you. I hope it happens like today. Like I hope it happens like yesterday. Like that's how like shitty you made me feel just [00:57:00] now.
[00:57:00] Kaitlyn: Well like talk about bad feedback. When I was telling you about my first job where I had the boss, I did, he would look at a photo and just be like, I don't like it. And I'd be like, what don't you like about it? And he'd just be like, I don't know.
[00:57:15] Mica: And that's it. And he didn't say anything else. Oh my God.
[00:57:19] Kaitlyn: And I would be like, do you not like the background? Do you not like the plate? Do you not like the way it's styled? Do you not like the way it's photographed? Do you not like the lighting? And he'd be like, I just don't like it. Try again.
[00:57:31] Mica: Oh my God. That is frustrating.
[00:57:34] Kaitlyn: And as like a 23-year-old you are like, Oh my God,
[00:57:40] Mica: I need deeds.
[00:57:44] Kaitlyn: Can you tell me something.
[00:57:46] Mica: That would drive me insane? Be like, okay, I need more. Please don't click bait me. Can you tell me anything sir?
[00:57:54] Kaitlyn: We would be trying to like fit the photo shoots in.
[00:57:58] Mica: Maybe we should send [00:58:00] homeboy that book and or give him the cliff notes. 'cause we know he's not gonna read it. I have one last question for you. When you think about everything you've built so far, what are you most proud of? Even if no one sees it?
[00:58:14] Kaitlyn: I think the community that I have, I'm the most proud of. I have some of the best friends in the world from this job, and there are people who like truly understand me in a way that like not many people do.
My best friend from childhood, yes. But aside from that, I can text like 10 people about like a napkin and I will get 10 responses being pumped about some napkin that I found. It's such a fun thing to have people like get just as excited as you are about something, like having creative partners that I really trust that I get to work with day in and day out.
That's not only like the photographers and the set stylists, but it's the photo assistants, it's [00:59:00] the retouchers and the producers and all of the food signing assistants that I work with and the other food stylists that I get to work with as a team. It is so much larger than than just a couple people.
You don't realize how many people and how many jobs go into creating something. And even clients like I have now seen clients meet, fall in love with someone, get married and have like multiple children. And it's incredible that like you have these relationships with people where you see their lives evolve and your life evolves and it's something like you don't necessarily see from the outside.
But it's the best part of my job, truly. I mean, I get to work with some of my best friends and you can be. We're all creatives, we're all extremely emotional people. So like you can be emotional and like [01:00:00] get frustrated and you have kind of a safe space to land with people you really trust. And I think that's just so beautiful.
And that's definitely my favorite part of the job more than anything else. It's just the people I get to spend it with. Talking about you do this 40 plus hours a week, you want to enjoy your job and you wanna enjoy like who you spend it with. And I'm so lucky that I get to spend it with the best people.
That would be my favorite thing.
[01:00:29] Mica: I enjoyed this so very much.
[01:00:33] Kaitlyn: I did too.
[01:00:35] Mica: This conversation just filled my soul so very much. I enjoyed it so much. Where can the listeners find you, follow you, absorb your work and admire you?
[01:00:47] Kaitlyn: So my Instagram is Kaitlyn m Hale. I can't get rid of that underscore.
And my website is Kaitlyn m [01:01:00] hale com. It's K-A-I-T-L-Y-N-M, hale, HAL e.com.
[01:01:07] Mica: Well, Katie, thank you so very much for being on the show. This is so good for my soul. I enjoyed this so much.
[01:01:15] Kaitlyn: Thank you so much, Mica.
[01:01:18] Mica: This episode is written and produced by me, your host, Mica McCook. Like this episode, give us a five star review on Apple Podcast and subscribe to the Savory Shot wherever you get your podcast.
Or follow me your host, Mica McCook, on Instagram at Mica dot McCook. Or you can follow the podcast on Instagram at a Savory Shot podcast. If you have any questions, comments, or would like to be featured on the show, email us at [01:02:00] podcast@thesavoryshot.com.