[00:00:00] Mica: Welcome to the 65th episode of the Savory Shot, a podcast about the art and soul of working in food photography. Y'all know I be. I'm your host with the most Mica McCook. I'm a food photographer based in Austin, Texas, where the days are staying hot and humid. I think today we're in the upper nineties, y'all, my eyelids are sweating.
Before we ease into today's conversation, I wanna take a moment to thank y'all for being here. No matter how long I go on a hiatus, y'all keep coming back to listen to another episode. So thank you for doing that. Thank you for being here. I hope you brought snacks and maybe a seatbelt, and some holy water and some prayers.
[00:01:00] And most importantly, some coffee.
Now let's get into today's episode. I had the absolute pleasure of chatting with Adrian Mueller, a world class photographer and tabletop director based in New York by way of Switzerland. Adrian's approach is all about stripping away the excess to reveal what's essential. His motto, beauty in simplicity. I like that.
In this episode, we talk about what it really means to find your voice, why your style is your niche, and how Adrian balances commercial demands with artistic integrity. We also explore his reflections on craft collaboration and the discipline of staying curious, you're gonna feel inspired, affirmed, [00:02:00] and maybe called out in the best way.
Of course, in the best way. We hear at the Savory Shot listen and do not judge harshly. This episode is an invitation to slow down, to listen more closely and to see not just what's in the frame, but what's beneath it. So pour yourself a cup of something warm. Let the noise fade. Let's start the show.
[00:03:00]
[00:03:02] Mica: Adrian, thank you so much for coming on the show, the Savory Shot. I'm very excited to have you here.
[00:03:18] Adrian: Thank you very much for reaching out. Pleasure to be on your podcast.
[00:03:21] Mica: Yes, yes. I wanna dive right in. I've got so many questions and so I wanna start with your interview that you did on the Creative Flex.
You talked about how soccer played a pivotal role in your life growing up, and how you went in a different direction. You mentioned that after realizing professional soccer wasn't your path, you completely changed direction. And I definitely know that feeling, my background is in theater, and then I realized, Oh, well, that's not gonna work.
And so changing that was a struggle for me. So I'm curious for you [00:04:00] what that moment was like for you and how did you make peace with the shift?
[00:04:04] Adrian: Well, it wasn't all that hard. I mean, obviously it was a boyhood dream, but at 20, I was only offered a contract to start playing professionally in the second division.
At that time, I had higher ambitions. I just didn't feel like, do I want to go into that direction and then grind it out over years till you finally reach where you would want to go? Or do I wanna pivot and go into a new direction? And when I realized that the new direction was more exciting, the thought of it was more exciting, then I knew it wasn't all that hard.
To abandon what I've been doing for 10, 12 years from a really early age on, and did it very seriously and with great passion. So the switch wasn't too big of a mental leap because the excitement wasn't really there to pursue it in a direction that I felt like I, I didn't really want to go. And so I knew this decision was right and it was [00:05:00] time to move on.
[00:05:01] Mica: I like that you said it was exciting. Because like most people starting something new, especially when it's been a part of your life for so long, it can be viewed as a scary thing. And my therapist always tells me, instead of thinking about what could go wrong, get excited about what could go right. And so I love that, that you mentioned that.
What were you the most excited about when going in this direction and pivoting?
[00:05:30] Adrian: Well, one thing was that I would leave Switzerland and pursue this new direction somewhere else. This happened to be in the United States, so the change of scenery, change of culture, change of language. That was one exciting part.
And the other exciting part was certainly to do something that I didn't think would be, or that I didn't think initially would be a viable path to make a living, to combine it with something that I always liked. [00:06:00] But to learn all the aspects about it and to be in a completely new environment to do so.
So that was really the most exciting part.
[00:06:08] Mica: Oh man. You mentioned in the same interview that you know your brother is a photographer and the joke was like, oh, we can't have more than one photographer. Was he supportive from the very start when you started venturing as a photographer?
[00:06:25] Adrian: Yes, definitely.
Initially, I didn't know how he would feel about it. I knew that it probably wasn't a great idea to pursue the same type of career in the same town, same country. Switzerland is very small. I mean, it's the size of Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island combined. That is the size
[00:06:43] Mica: What?
[00:06:45] Adrian: And we have about eight, eight and a half million population.
So if you start a business there, you do it with personal relations, relationships, et cetera, and you grow it from there. To have a competing [00:07:00] business with a family member in the same town, I wouldn't even call it a city, Lucerne, is a size of 80,000, a hundred thousand people. That's probably not a great idea.
So that's why when I decided if I go in that direction, but I do it somewhere else, then that concern would fall by the wayside and it wouldn't be an issue. And he was certainly very supportive. And when I got started, we did have an exchange in that regard. And as everything worked out just fine. So we didn't have any kind of awkward family Christmas dinners, et cetera, because of that.
[00:07:34] Mica: I love that. I love that. And I imagine you and him like passing knowledge and articles about photography back and forth and just growing even closer with this shared passion between the two of you.
[00:07:49] Adrian: It was very interesting because obviously we are brothers, but we are, we have different personalities.
Well, we do have similar approaches to certain things because we both [00:08:00] grew up in Switzerland, so there's a certain sense of design, a certain sense of style, work ethic, et cetera. So those are overlapping similarities. Then there are other things that are not obviously different. And after I was in the United States learning the craft after two, three years, we were able to sort of compare our growth over that period of time and see actually funny similarities, but also very exciting differences.
So that, that's an aspect that I actually enjoyed afterwards when we started working together.
[00:08:33] Mica: You mentioned in that same interview about the differences in how photography is taught in the US compared to Switzerland. What are those differences?
[00:08:42] Adrian: I felt at the time that the main difference was that in Switzerland it was a bit more methodical, so it's more about the craft of shooting.
The detailed knowledge of how to properly light different materials, whether be glass, metal, et cetera. Knowing how to be [00:09:00] basically how to be an excellent all arounder, know how to do good portraits. You shoot your product lifestyle maybe in a little bit of fashion. And in the US it was much more about personal expression, finding your style.
And then deciding on a niche rather than being a jack of all trades. And that has different, the main difference here is clearly size of market and what you should be able to do in Switzerland. If you decide I'm just gonna shoot product, then you really need to be able to go across borders and also work in Germany, in France, in Italy, in England, et cetera, to make it a viable career. And if you know how to shoot everything, then you will be approached for everything and, and you'll do everything. And in the US it's very different. You need to be specialized in a certain area and then really hone it and create your own style and have it be a form of personal expression to be distinct [00:10:00] enough so that you actually could be a viable option for certain projects.
So that was really the main, or is I think still the main difference.
[00:10:08] Mica: You raise an interesting point about that because this is a conversation that I've had a bazillion times with so many photographers about whether to niche down or to be a jack of all trades, and I have two people on two different spectrums.
There are those who are like photography. As photography, you need to be able to do all you need to be able to sustain yourself when economy's not going well. Or when business is slow, you need to have another niche that you can fall on. And then there are those who are like, no, if you are going to niche, you need to be like the best beverage photographer or the best wedding photographer out there.
And so I'm curious, what's your stance on that, being exposed to the two different types of education, where do you lean or fall more towards?
[00:10:58] Adrian: Well, in the [00:11:00] United States, I think it's important to have a niche and to be really known for something in particular. Obviously the other way you could approach is you're saying, my niche is my style and it's an overarching style.
Whether I shoot portraits, whether I shoot lifestyle or product, I have a certain look, certain style sort of lighting that can really be translated into these certain areas and it still feels cohesive and coherent. And that is the type of niche that is broad basically because anybody who has, let's say you would wanna shoot watches, that can be lifestyle watches, that can be product, et cetera.
That can be anything that entails a certain look. And if you can do all these areas, but with a very cohesive style, and look, you actually would be very valuable partner in any collaboration and not so distinct as in say, no, I only shoot drinks, for example. So [00:12:00] that's the new. Probably a better way to describe a successful niche than just having one particular area that you would sort of specialize in.
[00:12:09] Mica: Was there a defining moment where you felt like you had fully established your own voice as a photographer?
[00:12:15] Adrian: There wasn't a particular moment. It's just over time, once certain awards, like the alerts, as archive to the best, those worldwide recognition started to accumulate along with shooting certain campaigns that I always was striving for.
I knew that I could definitely hold my own. I could be successful and happy working solo. I would say it was sort of a period of time of maybe two to three years afterwards and then four years afterwards, I could clearly tell this is going in the right direction and the way I had imagined it, it could be.
So it wasn't one particular pivotal moment that's just like an accumulation of things.
[00:12:59] Mica: I like [00:13:00] that it was little nuggets of moments that collected and you're like, oh yeah, I feel good. In a past Q and a, you mentioned that you avoid retouching food images for editorial assignments and like cookbooks and things like that, and I am fully on board with that.
What drives this approach and how does it affect the authenticity of your work?
[00:13:25] Adrian: Yeah, so for editorial work and cookbooks in particular, I do keep post-production to a minimum, and that really, that has to do mainly with the look of approachability, authenticity, since it's really important that whoever sees the work can relate to it, and especially when it comes to editorial and cookbooks, you work closely together with a chef.
A writer. So it's not really like top down hierarchy in regards to art direction. It is [00:14:00] more of a collaboration and a creative expression and do and do enjoy the freedom. To do that type of work and then make sure that what we produce is authentic to what is written about or the recipes that are being portrayed.
There are certain moments, obviously, when we do commercial work, we'll have three pages of retouch notes, which is not unusual, but in those jobs, I make sure that those are handled by full-time post-production partners, since I'm also likely not going to have the time to do the post-production. While I'm preparing for the next project, but for editorial and cookbooks, I really like to be overseeing that part and also doing it to make sure there is a relatability that remains and it stays authentic.
That's true.
[00:14:49] Mica: Do you ever receive any pushback when it comes to that approach and how do you handle it if you do?
[00:14:56] Adrian: I wouldn't say pushback. It's more, oh, could we clean this up and could we [00:15:00] change this from here to there? The answer is always, yes, we can do that. Question is, why do we wanna do that? And does it align with what we're, what we were trying to achieve initially?
And if it does, then we'll make those changes. But very often a. We realize after making that change. Yeah, I don't think that was a good idea. And then it resolves by itself. Obviously. I don't want to be so rich as to say, no, we're not doing that. I'd rather do it and then let it speak for itself and say, see, I think its better.
We will believe that alone because it just doesn't match. It doesn't match. It doesn't feel right and thin. There is agreement. Once you have agreement, then you can move forward without any issues.
[00:15:44] Mica: And then they say, oh, this is why I hired you and your team.
[00:15:50] Adrian: Yes. That's also, that's a good point. Yes.
[00:15:54] Mica: I'll just take a step back and let you guys do your magic.
[00:15:58] Adrian: Yes, and of course [00:16:00] there are always very strong opinions about certain things. Those opinions are always informed by other memories or preferences that come from the past, and I respect that. But in the end, once you look at it, you have to honestly look at it and say, does it really do what we want it to do?
And if it doesn't, you have to let it go and then just go with what looks best.
[00:16:23] Mica: I am curious of what it's like to work with a chef and if whether or not that's a different experience and if they're as emotionally attached to the cookbook as an author would be, and seen as how you've worked with both, what would you say is the difference between working with a chef versus working with the author on cookbooks?
[00:16:43] Adrian: I think when it comes to working with a chef, it's really about, mostly about presentation, because they would present it as it would be presented when you eat it, and sometimes that's that can look or be very different from how you would style it.
When you [00:17:00] shoot it for obvious reasons and you have a sauce, et cetera, you wanna make sure that the sauce comes very last. You can do your initial shots without it. And then when you dribble sauce over it, if it goes overboard, you can scale it back because you have layers of other captures that are a little bit reduced.
Those are sort of interactions with a chef that come naturally and we discuss it, et cetera. But for chefs, it's really about how does it look the way I present it because we with a photograph or really we don't have advantage of smelling it, tasting it, et cetera. It's really just looking at it and there they very much lean into my experience and what I think would be best.
When it comes to authors, they're very concerned obviously, that the recipe that they're writing and everything that is about either the culture of the dish or the heritage of it, is authentic with how we capture it, and that there are certain aspects of it that they show and sometimes. When you have certain ingredients or spices that they really need to [00:18:00] show up in the image so that it translates.
So that's another discussion that you, sometimes you don't have that with a chef, and then you have to collaborate with the author, the writer, to make sure that those elements really are shown and where do you show it so that it's not too obvious, not too staged, et cetera. But those are the two main differences.
[00:18:20] Mica: On your website, you shared that you spent time in Japan and that it had a profound impact on your creative perspective. What was it about that experience that shifted the way that you see the world and your work?
[00:18:36] Adrian: Well, it had mainly to do with my own impression of how I operate.
'cause I was always, I view myself as, as quite organized that I'm always well prepared for shoots and being from Switzerland that I have a certain work ethic that's ingrained, et cetera. But sort of once I started to learn over time [00:19:00] how people in different cultures in this, in regard to Japan in particular, how they work and how dedicated they are about every detail, no matter how small, I just didn't realize that I've only sort of scratched the surface of what it means to be a real artisan, someone who knows how to combine art, the art of doing something with something that is combined with really well honed craft.
So craftsmanship. It's on a completely different level that that I was used to. Knowing your tools, every detail of your work, and then continuously trying to hone it and expand is that has sort of become a theme as to to never stop, to always look how to further improve, but just to sort of keep on going one step by the time.
And that ties in with what I've mentioned before, if it is the style. That is your niche, then you also need your style to evolve because five years from now, your style is gonna [00:20:00] be outdated and so you need to keep on moving. And that's sort of the things that I had to take to heart and tell myself, well, yes, you have a good base, but that's a starting point and to always see it that way.
'cause you could find masters of certain crafts and there. 70, 75, and they still see themselves as an apprentice. That goes through the steps of learning more. And once you get to a certain point, if you feel like I'm a master now, that's a probably problematic point because from there on, there's not a lot of improvement left.
Right. But that sort of needs to be the attitude overall.
[00:20:43] Mica: Oh yes. I love that, that you need to see yourself as a forever student. 'cause if you feel like you've mastered something, then that's where the boredom comes in, and then you just stop trying.
[00:20:53] Adrian: Yes.
[00:20:53] Mica: Yeah.
[00:20:54] Adrian: Yes. And then that ties into ego. And we all have a little bit of an ego.
We all wanna [00:21:00] make sure that we can express ourselves the way we intend to, but that shouldn't stop ourselves from being able to look up and see you. That actually, even though I've been doing this for 10, 20, whatever years now, that actually might be a good idea. Let's incorporate that or let's take the next step or take a risk in your, the way you evolve.
Do something where you not feel super comfortable because it isn't exactly aligned with what you're used to. And then see that as a possible step into. The next phase next. So that's really important I think, to have in mind that task.
[00:21:37] Mica: I'd love to make friends with photographers overseas because A, I'm just a nosy person and I wanna know everything about what everybody's doing.
What I struggle with is how to approach them and say, Hey, can we swap ideas and learn from each other? What has been your best approach that's worked for you?
[00:21:58] Adrian: Mainly it's as you [00:22:00] mentioned before, curiosity, right? If you approach somebody and say, can you tell me this? Can you tell me that? That might not come off as collaborative or interested.
That seems more like something that you are trying to get. So instead of doing that, it's just the curiosity of asking questions like, this looks amazing. I've been doing this for a long time. I have no clue how you did that. Those are things that you then tie into a conversation, which also means you show the appreciation of what this person was able to create.
And even though you are also quite experienced that you don't know how that happened, there's a genuine curiosity. On how this could be done or how it was done. And then this exchange happens a little bit more genuinely. Also, because you then can share how you usually do things and what the result of that is, and if, especially if it's something that isn't exactly what the other person is doing.
And that exchange [00:23:00] usually leads to, really lovely things and the good relationship that brings it to the next level. Not only your work, but also the way you interact. So rather than go and trying to say, how can I replicate this? How can I copy this more of a genuine approach, interest and curiosity probably is gonna go much further than that.
[00:23:21] Mica: What's been your favorite icebreaker question when meeting a new photographer?
[00:23:27] Adrian: This is amazing. How did you do this?
[00:23:30] Mica: I love that so much. I love that so much. '
[00:23:35] Adrian: Cause it's honest. It's really honest because that's my first thought, right? I look at this, this is incredible. I can connect to this. Trying to figure out why, what are sort of like the emotional cues that are triggered and then genuinely, how did you do this?
I'm trying to see reflections. They're trying to see the light direction. They're trying to see highlights. Obviously. Then I'm like, [00:24:00] okay, the light must have come from here. Must have been this type source. But if it's this source that I think it is, or that light shaping tool that I think it is, that would mean that this area would be darker.
So then how does this work?
He was like, this is amazing. Yeah. How did you do that? Yes, exactly.
Yep.
[00:24:20] Mica: Yes. And it probably also feeds their ego where they're like, eh, let me.
[00:24:26] Adrian: Yes, as it should, because they definitely worked on it.
[00:24:29] Mica: Yeah.
[00:24:30] Adrian: So that is a genuine compliment that they deserve.
[00:24:33] Mica: That's a great icebreaker question.
I'm gonna use that. I'm basically gonna use everything you've advised. So 10, 20 years you've been in this, what's something that you've learned recently that is exciting for you?
[00:24:47] Adrian: I think one aspect that's been exciting the last 12, 24 months, which at the same time has been a bit scary, is how it has evolved in regards to post-production.[00:25:00]
Obviously with AI tools in post-production, I'm now capable of doing things on my own that I'd say two, three years ago there was no way. There was no way. I could have done that at the same level and the same quality as I can do it now. So now I have certain requests for post-production where I know, obviously with my knowledge and experience of retouching for the last 20 years, that in addition to having the AI tools available, I can handle this.
And in the past I was. No way. There's no way I would've to go to a post-production company or friends and retouchers who only do that. So that's on one hand, an exciting development. On the other hand, it's also a bit scary because obviously you don't wanna move into a direction where you then start to take on everything because I'm a photographer, director.
I'm not a retouch, but it's certainly the [00:26:00] case that sometimes there are certain projects where we have retouching budget for really important elements, and then for other work, it just doesn't make sense to hand that to a retouching or post-production house because they would even say, this is not worth our time.
And in those instances, I can then absolutely step in and make those changes. And that's been liberating. That's been liberating, but also a little scary. Honest about.
[00:26:28] Mica: I wanna take it to your motto, beauty and simplicity and how that guides your work. How did this philosophy come about? The first thing I thought of was Marie Kondo, where is just minimalist and remove everything that isn't necessary. And I'm like, wow. So, but I wanna hear how did that come about and how is it impacting you today?
Still as a photographer?
[00:26:51] Adrian: Right. Well, I believe it that it's actually quite difficult. To create something that is both inherently beautiful and simple [00:27:00] looking at the same time. 'Cause you really would have to reduce whatever you're capturing to its essence to find the essence of what you're capturing and the essence of what you wanna say, and to still be able to elegantly like provide a truthful representation in a relatable and approachable manner.
That is a task that's hard and it's not understood by many on how to achieve that consistently in a certain style and do it well. The other thing is really, we're surrounded by noise constantly. Visual noise, auditory noise. I find it amazing the satisfying to create images and videos that seem to cut through that to provide something calm.
Sound like sort of reassuring and that, I guess is what I mean with simplicity. I don't mean simplicity in any kind of negative connotation. [00:28:00] It just needs to be something that provides joy. And I hope it would provide joy to those who see the work as well, to sort of feel grounded, reassured, and to feel a sense of calm.
And that's where simplicity comes in. I know a lot of people when they see beauty and simplicity, they might think that means one object sort of abstract in a very sort of empty space, and that's not really what I mean.
[00:28:27] Mica: Yeah, that's the first thing that I thought of.
[00:28:30] Adrian: You can have a scene staged whether you have talent or humanity within it that has several elements that all tie together, and then a type of light that really is coherent with the subject that you're shooting.
Then you start in your process of capturing, you decide, does it need to be here? Does it need to move to the corner? Does it need to come out completely? Simplicity doesn't mean empty. For me, it just means [00:29:00] essence. And if you can create that essence with three, four objects, fantastic. If it needs six, that's great.
If it's just needs one or two and the beautiful surface and the exceptional light, then that's all fine. It's really not about the number of things, but what it means that you're trying to say. And if you can boil it down to the essence of what you wanna say, then you will have created building simplicity.
That's where that comes from.
[00:29:26] Mica: I wanna take it to A Photo Editor. I saw your postcard featured, and anyone who is not following A Photo Editor should be. There's so much knowledge and advice that I've gotten over the years. I was first turned to it when I was in school and we were learning about setting out postcards, marketing ourselves, things like that, and we learned that marketing is a huge part of our work and how we market ourselves is much different than how a, [00:30:00] B2C I think this business to customer would market themselves. What strategies have worked for you in marketing your photography and what. This is a side question. What prompted you to send in your postcard to A Photo Editor?
[00:30:16] Adrian: Well, with A Photo Editor, I've been following that channel for a while. I know the person behind it, and I felt like I've seen so many of those mailers that came in and that he shared, and I felt like that's something I would love to do as well. Not just for the recognition or the sharing reason for it, but to be part of a community that does that.
That was the first thought about it. When it comes to sort of strategies, it's sort of a, it's a mix of things that I do that I think is not all that different from what others are doing. It's, uh, I do social media outreach through LinkedIn and Instagram, which is also something that I actually enjoy. I [00:31:00] have a curated list of about 1500 people, close contacts, who signed up to receive my emails.
So those are people that I've worked with. Or I'm working with right now, people that I wanted to work with, but maybe the project did not work out. So really contacts that are interested in my progress, things that are going on that that I know they would wanna see an email or they send up for it. So that's something that I do about two to three times a year.
It's sort of like designed email with work and updates, et cetera, which has excellent traction because the people receive it. They were on that list, they wanna see it. The open rates and the click rates are are excellent. What I also use are platforms like Boulevard Artists and Ad Edge to have a presence there because you never know.
So that's sort of more like PR, so that you are top of mind. If people go to certain places and say, oh, here he is, [00:32:00] that's, what's that, what that is? Boulevard Artists and At Edge, and I go to portfolio meetings either in person. Through New York City Photo Works or online where you can sign up and meet people that's also through Boulevard or we are at the table or at edge, face-to-face, et cetera.
That's something really important for me. I wanna meet people personally and I want to make sure that whoever I'm meeting, I can research, I can clearly tell what they're looking for so that whatever meeting I have, 10, 20 minutes. I cannot only make a connection with that person, but really present work that is relevant to what they're doing so that.
It's obviously one-to-one marketing. That's not broad marketing, but it's, for me, it's been very effective. I can go to meetings three times, four times a year, and I know the connections I make there will lead to work either immediately or long term, three, four or five years later, et cetera, [00:33:00] if you're staying in touch.
And that's also the reason why I organize meetings directly at ad agencies. That's been possible again for the last couple of years. They're open to portfolio breakfasts, et cetera, with their creatives, which I enjoy that a lot. Oh, that's cool. Depending on where I'm going, which agency that I'm going to and what accounts they have, I might bring along certain catering that I also make branded catering in that sense, where my logo or whatever it is there.
So obviously you meet 20, 30, 40 people. I understand they, they come for a donut and a coffee or whatever it is that we're bringing along. But what they might remember if it's not the work they might remember, wow, did that really cool catering. It was delicious. It was branded. Nobody had done that before.
Whatever it is, and then they remember you that way, or they take a picture of it and then share it, not necessarily work. That's sort of something that. Needs to be understood. It's not always about the work, it's more [00:34:00] about the connection and the memoral things, trail of crumbs that you can leave, that people can remember.
So that's something I do. Printed mailers only to people who are willing to share their mailing address. Obviously that's been, I haven't done a broad mailing campaign in years. Uh, maybe last time 2019. Then what's really important, and maybe not everyone sees it the same way, but I think to realize that one of the best marketing tools is really excellent communications before, during, and after job, or a project that even not might have come your way.
That is really important. Making a connection that is genuine fun, that can be down the road, can really establish something even if the job doesn't come right now. That's an important strategy because sometimes, obviously it's difficult. You're shooting a job, you're bidding for a job, and you're prepping the next [00:35:00] one, right?
You're doing that together with a team of producers and collaborators, or even agents if they're involved in what you're doing, and sometimes things can feel rushed or you're finally shooting something that you've. Worked on for two to three months. Right now, now's the shoot time. You have three or four days of shooting, and you wanna focus solely on shooting because that's when you put all the work in it for the project to come.
And now you're shooting. But then while you're shooting, you're inundated with new requests, new treatments, new estimates, et cetera. That can feel really overwhelming. And when you feel overwhelmed, very often, the way you communicate, whether it's by email, in person, phone calls. Might be a little tense when there's tension.
People can feel it, but they don't know why. They don't know why. They don't see behind the curtain. They don't see all the pressures and the things that you have to deal with. And if they don't see it, they feel the tension but can't explain it, and they feel like maybe it's not the person to work [00:36:00] with on the next project to be conscious of that.
To be either be honest, you can say really sorry, at the moment, I'm just overwhelmed with work. Or to be conscious of it and say, okay, then now's the time to calm down. I'm gonna focus on this conversation on this bit for the next 30 minutes until I step forward so that your communications are honest, clean, genuine, kind, fun, interested, all the things that you would want in a collaborator, right?
So that they understand. You can be a valuable partner in this venture, and even if it's not for this job, might not work out that the next one. Remember her. Remember him. They were excellent. Whatever reason, we couldn't work with them. Schedules didn't align. Budgets didn't align. Hire up creative, wanted to work with somebody else, but you know, it was such a pleasure.
Let's try to get the next job with them, and that is a super important [00:37:00] marketing tool. It just should be actually your own general being that is like that. I understand sometimes when tensions are high, especially during a shoot, you might not wanna deal with A, B and C in addition to it. But if you can be conscious of the fact that could be your next best thing and to be really open.
To relax communications and to also think how can I help them achieve what they want? Then that is your best, excellent marketing tool. It doesn't hurt to have great SEO. If you have a website, obviously you should have a website. It doesn't hurt to have that. I definitely invest time and money into that as well, and I do get a significant amount of inquiries and work through being found with the right search terms.
Lasting impressions, lasting positive impressions with people who are in the industry will lead to even better results.
[00:37:59] Mica: And [00:38:00] you mentioned earlier that I thought such a great point about taking your time with building relationships. And this is something for the long term. It's not gonna be like right away.
A no doesn't mean no forever. It just means not right now. In a culture of like instant results, I, if I send out an email, I expect to get 10 jobs from it. And if it doesn't happen, then you know, you get discouraged and you don't wanna do it anymore, and that's just not how it works. So I love that you pointed that out, that it's like you have to keep at it, keep pushing, keep contacting, keep reaching out, and over time.
So, yeah, thanks for saying that. I have no follow up question to that. I just thought that was wonderful. Besides communication skills, what are some skills that photographers today that aren't related to photography should be working on and developing right now [00:39:00] if they aren't already?
[00:39:01] Adrian: Well, I think the most important thing is your mindset.
That ties into what we just spoke about. The mindset needs to be long-term. Because it's a career that you're trying to build. I understand the need for jobs and for mine, et cetera, but in the end, it's the need to have long-term relationships over short-term satisfaction of the quick job here and a little bit money there, et cetera.
So that is sort of the overall overarching ML that anybody who starts out needs to keep in mind at all times. Mindset, long-term goals, and then the rest is a mix of things. First, I think you should study the work of those who, whose work you like and who shoot major campaigns right now. That usually gives you pretty good insight of what's on the trend and then.
Yet, the next step is to work on your own craft, which is really important, and it also includes video. I can't stress that enough. Having a great [00:40:00] portfolio and having great reel at this point is really crucial. And to have fun when you produce that work for your portfolio and really try to shoot it your way to see it your way, and so that your style becomes distinct.
What I also saw being really helpful when I started out is meeting with agents. That's not necessarily with the goal. Of being, going to an agent, getting repped, but to get honest feedback and to get that feedback in an environment where no job is on the line. Because once you go and meet with that agencies and you have meetings there, people will remember you.
And of course when you start out, you work is not as honed and polished, et cetera as it might need to be. And if they see that, they might like it, but they feel like it's not there yet. You will not get another meeting for at least 3, 4, 5 years until it is where it needs to be with those type of people.
So when [00:41:00] you go meet with agents, you can generally talk about where you are in your career, where you would like to go, and then they can help you with insights and tips and how you can get there without you feeling. I'm not gonna see them again for another five, six years because they don't wanna see my work again until then because they feel like I'm not ready.
So that's been really helpful and I did that quite consistently. 'Cause my goal was, at the very beginning of my career, my goal was to meet with at least a hundred people a year in person, to basically not only get tips and strategies and such, but also to get work from it. Because I figured. If I meet a hundred people within the industry all in or close to decision making positions, then if three out of those hundred that I connect with really feel like that's the right person, these three people can [00:42:00] get me work.
That is significant and their referrals can lead to additional work. So that's the same thing or that's the same thing that happened when I met with agents because obviously once I meet with them, they can tell, okay, this guy would be good if he would meet with X, Y, and Z. 'cause they're in the industry, they are really close knit relationships with all people that might be interested in seeing the work.
And then they can refer you and when you then reach out to those people, you can reach out with a strong referral saying. Peter said, Susan said, I should meet with you and those will get you meetings as well. And then you can meet the a hundred people a year and not be disappointed when you are in meeting number 75 and nothing has happened yet, because that just means you have 25 more meetings left to find your three.
So then there's no discouraging or sense of discouragement, right? Oh man. I'm meeting number 60. [00:43:00] Nothing is happening. Good. That's also not the right person. So I'm getting closer to the right people. That's how, at least how I saw it. That's obviously can be seen as a grind, but if you genuinely like meeting people and interacting and showing work and be open for tips if it's not the right person for a project, and that's actually an enjoyable experience.
So those are sort of my tips for anybody who's starting out. And the very last thing that I can say once it comes to shooting, it's important to remember that everyone who works with you, whether it's the client, the creative director, or your assistant, they're all equally important, and the way you interact with them is equally important.
I think the most discouraging thing for an art director or a creative director would be to come onto a set where they realize the photographer is so nice to the creative team, but really [00:44:00] not cool with the collaborators that he or she hired to make it happen. Because in the end, it's a team effort. I need excellent food stylists, excellent prop styles and set designers.
I need good assistance, so I want them to be obviously, conscious of the fact, pay attention to what's going on. Be collaborative. I, I need great digital text onset retouches, and I wanna communicate with them in a manner that shows to them that they're important to this process and they have a stake in this.
Not just a payday for the day for coming, but they have a stake in creating what we're doing. And if that's done, I feel like the creatives can see that this is a person. That understands that sometimes it's the hierarchy is not vertical. Sometimes it needs to be horizontal in a creative process and not above somebody food stylist.
I can't do that. I need that. That needs to be communicated, and [00:45:00] that's really important to keep in mind when you then start shoot.
[00:45:03] Mica: Ah, I mean, you hit it on the nail. I had my first adult job. I worked at an architect office as an office manager. The owner of the company, Herman, was just the most amazing human being.
And what I loved about working there was just how much he took care of everybody. Everybody was taken care of. And his motto, his belief was, you take care of your people, they'll take care of you. And I love that you said that. That is so, so, so, so very important. So I have two more questions, and the first is for aspiring food photographers who want to break into advertising and brand work, what's the number one skill or mindset that they should focus on developing?
[00:45:56] Adrian: Yeah. That basically was first of all, the mindset [00:46:00] and then working on your craft, trying to find out who shoots major campaigns, the work that you liked, try to emulate, et cetera. And the other thing that I might not have mentioned in that vein is to not be afraid and ask for help. Because when I started out, I think that was sort of my, that's it.
It was sort of unfamiliar for me to go and ask for help, especially when you want, when you wanna work on your portfolio and you're real. So you have to ask, you should ask stylists, prop stylists, set designers, et cetera. Would you be open to collaborate, create a series? Make storyboard, et cetera, creative direction that they align with, then work together with them to brew something for your book.
And that's, I was always more focused on what's next or what's potentially next as in a job. And then when I work for my portfolio, I hire people and [00:47:00] I do this and that, rather than saying, how about we collaborate on this and you ask for help. That's something that I had a little bit of. I wasn't quite sure how to go about it and didn't feel very comfortable because I always felt I might be indebted afterwards.
But that's something once you gain confidence, I think as a really important tool, because then you also build relationships with people that you can afterwards hire when the jobs come along. So that's an important thing to remember, to not be afraid and ask for help.
[00:47:31] Mica: I have a follow up to that. Who should you ask?
Should you ask people that are already established because they might be too busy? Or should you ask people that are also getting started that are on where you grow together in your respective careers? So
who would you ask?
[00:47:48] Adrian: I would always say, let's start at the top, because a no is a no, right? So if somebody who is really good at what they're doing and they're established that they know the process and their experience, they're really good.
[00:48:00] They can elevate the work that you do, why not go ask them? All they can say is no. So if they say no, no problem, because if you don't ask them, it's the same outcome. So you start at the top. It's the same thing afterwards. When you go and show work, once you feel like you are confident enough to go get the work, that you can always ask people at the top, they can say no, and then you go now.
So that's something that I would do. In that regard, and then obviously in the end when it turns out to be also somebody who's starting out in regards to styling, then you do that and you grow together. There's nothing wrong with that, but there is also nothing wrong with asking an established person to come and help you out because you would be surprised that when you have genuine interest, curiosity, and admiration, I mean, that needs to be genuine.
Then that comes through and a lot of people are actually very open to help out whether that is in advice or actual [00:49:00] work together to create a project. So keep that in mind. Don't be afraid.
[00:49:05] Mica: Ah, yes. I love that because they might shock you and say yes. I mean, yes. I think I'd be more afraid of the yes than I'd be like, oh, okay.
[00:49:13] Adrian: Yeah, an alphabet.
[00:49:15] Mica: Alright, let's do this.
[00:49:18] Adrian: Pecking up. That
[00:49:20] Mica: is scary so much. Okay. The other one is, what is exciting you creatively these days?
[00:49:27] Adrian: I think it's just really combining stills photography with video to find ways to create a more comprehensive story. When you shoot a project, not just a secure, but just shooting stills, how could you look if we are also shooting videos and what type of videos?
It doesn't have to be long form, and it doesn't have to be over the top commercial. It can be vignettes, little moving things, little camera moves, little my light moves, et cetera, that evoke the feeling that you want to. Create when people look at the [00:50:00] still. So in combination, it can be much more comprehensive and interesting, and especially nowadays when people scroll and look at things and are used to maybe two to four second attention span, if you can grab them and hold them a little longer because something is moving, then even better.
So those are the elements that I'm really looking for at the moment.
[00:50:23] Mica: I feel like the cinemagraph is making a comeback, and I'm so excited. Yeah. Little vignette is nice. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Finally, so my, my final question is where can the listeners find you and follow you and support you
[00:50:40] Adrian: Well, on Instagram, my handle is Mueller Adrian, that's M-U-E-L-L-E-R, Adrian, A-D-R-I-A-N.
Website, a muller.com. A-M-U-E-L-L-E r.com. If you'd like to connect, obviously LinkedIn, [00:51:00] same thing. Muller, Adrian, and now on your podcast. Yes, through your podcast as well.
Those are sort of the main areas, and once you go on those sites, you will see how to reach me either by email or direct messaging, et cetera.
[00:51:19] Mica: If anyone has a question to ask you, he is. Put that energy out there that you can. Feel free to ask him any questions.
[00:51:28] Adrian: Yes, absolutely. Happy to do so.
[00:51:30] Mica: Adrian, thank you so much for being on the show.
This was such a great conversation. I enjoyed all of this so very much. It really, it's an honor to have you here, so thank you for sharing your experience and your insights and everything.
[00:51:45] Adrian: Thank you so much Mica. It was really a pleasure speaking with you and enjoy the last hour and a half and I hope the listeners will as well.
And as you mentioned, if anybody has a question for me, please to reach out. Um, definitely open to answer whatever you might need to know. [00:52:00]
[00:52:00] Mica: Yay. Yes. This episode is written and produced by me, your host, Mica McCook. Like this episode, give us a five star review on Apple Podcast and subscribe to the Savory Shot wherever you get your podcast.
Or follow me your host, Mica McCook, on Instagram at Mica dot McCook. Or you can follow the podcast on Instagram at a Savory Shot podcast. If you have any questions, comments, or would like to be featured on the show, email us at podcast@thesavoryshot.com.