038: Engineering Visual Stories in Food Photography

Mica: [00:00:00] Welcome to the 38th episode of The Savory Shot. It is December, the last friggin month of the year. And I don't know about y'all, but, uh, ya girl is ready to wrap this year up and charge into 2024. If this is your first time here, Welcome.

My name is Mica. I'm a food photographer and I live in Austin. And if you're a returning listener, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for coming back. Clearly you are enjoying the hot mess express that this show is. So thank you, my ride or dies, for always showing up and showing out and showing love and support.

I am really thankful to have you guys., That's how I start every show with a thank you. With the gracias, danke schoen, merci.

Did y'all listen to the [00:01:00] episode with food stylist Lisa Homa? Y'all. Ooh! Ya girl loved that episode. Lisa Homa has been in the business for over 20 years. She did not come to play. She came with facts, with receipts. With humor. I loved every second of that interview. But, let's talk about today's episode, y'all. Oooooooowee! I got a doozay for you. Y'all, me and this guest, we talked for almost two hours. Now, don't freak out. This episode will not be two hours long. I whittled and chiseled and trimmed this episode up so you get it with a nice pretty bow.

But I'm telling you that it was a two hour conversation because that's how awesome and amazing this person is. So I am not going to waste any more [00:02:00] time. I'm going to introduce our guest. Meet food photographer Francesco Sapienza. Francesco is an Italian photographer. He is actually Italian. Born and raised in Italy. But he's based in New York.

He is a former engineer and now he is a full time food photographer. In addition to his food photography, he is also known for his street photography. Y'all go to his website, look at his portraiture. Oh, you will fall in love with it just as much as I did. Y'all, this episode, I cannot, I can't, like, I can't, I'll try to describe all the things that we talked about.

It was a lot. We talked about his decision to leave his home country, how meditation and yoga helped him center his mind, his past as an engineer, and the transition he made into photography. We even talked about the book [00:03:00] that he worked on for the Smithsonian. Liam, y'all. This episode is packed, and I couldn't think of a better way to close out this year.

I mean, we have one more episode, but it's a solo episode, and I'll talk about that in the solo episode. But this is the last guest of the year, and I couldn't think of anyone more perfect than Francesco to close out the year. Without further ado, grab yo cuppa cuppa peppa. Your wine, your tequila, your margarita.

It's five o'clock somewhere. In fact, it's five o'clock here. Whatever you do, just kick back, relax, and let's start the show.

[00:04:00]

Mica: I would like to start off by thanking you for being on the show.

I have been looking forward to this interview for, man, when you first hit me up in early October, I was like, oh, so funny because you were on my list to contact. And you said that I was on your list to contact, so it's funny how it all came together. Francesco, thank you so much for being on the show and welcome.

Welcome to The Savory Shot.

Francesco: Thank you for having me.

Mica: I want to get right into it.

I've got some meaty questions to jump right into and I'm ready to go. How about you?

Francesco: I get my shield.[00:05:00]

Mica: So you were born and raised in Rome, educated in Stockholm, and you're now a New Yorker. What did each of these cities teach you about yourself that surprised you?

Francesco: Oh, wow. A lot. The trajectory of my life clearly, has been influenced by these places. But there's a difference between the first one and the second two. The first one I didn't choose. The second two I chose. And that's a huge difference.

I didn't feel like I fit in, in Rome and early on, I realized I wanted the more international environment around me. So I started learning English very early by myself. Watching, movies and TV shows with subtitles. So they're always dubbed. In Italy, you dub movies and TV shows.

But I could find some that had subtitles in English. So I could actually learn English as I heard the Italian and [00:06:00] then I was reading the words in English. So, I thought that was really important. I really enjoyed English. And after studying Latin and Greek in school, English is okay, frankly. Pronunciation will never be, you know, like a mother tongue.

But grammatically speaking, it's very easy compared to Italian or many other languages. So I didn't fit in Rome and, but I thought, okay, I, I need a degree before I can go somewhere else and find a job. So I decided that I would stay until I finish college, study engineering. The thing was that I realized very early on that there was a huge struggle to just study in Rome, at that university that back then. I don't know if it's different now. And I'm not talking about the subject matter, which by itself is really hard. I'm talking about the logistics and the actual going to class.

Picture this. Say class starts at eight thirty in the morning. So you show up maybe at eight fifteen. You [00:07:00] arrive, and there's no seat for you. And then you think, okay, maybe, maybe, you know, it's just a mistake. No, there's about 20 percent of the people who are standing. The class is not big enough for all the students. And I'm like what? And people are like, what, didn't you know that? So, what do you do? You buy a camping chair and you bring your chair to the class. Suddenly you realize that a lot of people think the same thing. So you're, you're fighting to get the seats right in front of the first row. where everybody's having their camping chair. Eventually people, people start locking their chair in the classroom with a chain so they don't have to carry it on the train every morning. I'm serious. So this just to get to studying. That's why I said that it's not about the studying, which is hard already. So all that every single day, five days a week.

Mica: Wow.

Francesco: People told me, you know what, by the second year, by the third year, so many people have dropped [00:08:00] out because they can't sustain, they can't take it. That is going to be a piece of cake. Your third year, fourth and fifth. And I was like, okay, I can do this. Fine. First year is like that.

Second year is like that. I start the first, the third year. And it's still like that. And I'm like, ooh, I don't think I can do this. Okay, what do you do if you don't like a situation you're in? I think you got two options. You try and change it and make it likable, or you avoid the situation. So I tried and changed it.

I went to the dean and I'm like, hey, this is not good. This is a fire hazard. You can't have all these people standing, blocking the exit door and everything. Can you please address this? He's like, nah, that's the way it is. And I'm like, Okay, but then I'll, I'm calling the, I'm calling the police. I'm going to get somebody to come here and see what it looks like.

He goes like, look at me with a smug face and goes like, you know that nobody's allowed on the premises unless [00:09:00] I give them permission. I'm like, okay, all right.

Mica: I'll just, go get my camping chair and sit down.

Francesco: Exactly. I realized that there was nothing I could do to change things and I either stick with that and, and go through how to get my degree or find other options.

Enters Stockholm. In a matter of six months, me and my buddy, we got enough of everything. He's living in Norway and I'm living in Sweden as exchange students. And I went from having to fight to be in class, and having no computer because there were like five computers for, I don't know, a thousand people in Rome, to having almost my own dedicated computer in Stockholm.

An amazing place, all clean and neat and people on time and all that. It was a dream. So Rome taught me that you need to do something if you're not happy. And I think Stockholm taught me that [00:10:00] you need to believe in yourself. You can change things in direction that you could not foresee. And chase your dreams.

So, I decided to become a professional photographer when I was in Stockholm. It was 2005, 2006. And I was 36, 35, something. I was not twenty.

And the best part was that people encouraged me to do that. Not my parents, of course. Not my, not my, not my Italian friends. But the Swedish friends, they encourage me.

Sweden is a lot more like the U. S. when it comes to taking risks rather than Italy. Italy is very conservative. Oh, of course, I need to get into the picture the fact that my parents, they were born during the Second World War. They were poor.

Of course, they wanted me to have a job, good money for the rest of my life. And here comes the guy who's the first one to get a degree in the entire family. It goes like, you know what, I'm going to do [00:11:00] photography.

Mica: They're like, wait, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Francesco: And I had like my career in engineering was incredible. I was one of the top experts in in mobile communications back then. I was training people all around the world. There were not so many people like me. We're talking, you know, 10, 20 people in the world who could, who knew those things and could teach them.

Mica: Wow.

Francesco: it was a pretty amazing job, it's just my passion was not there. But at the same time I was like, Okay, do I want to go share a couch with somebody because I don't have a place to stay? And be a poor artist was not able to, you know, pay rent at 36. I'd rather keep my engineering on the side as a consultant and grow my photography business.

So this is what I did. And of course my ego was like. Oh man, I'm still doing engineering. You know, a couple of years into that, I was like, [00:12:00] man, I'm still doing engineering. I don't want to do that. I feel like a failure. Will I ever get to the point where I can say bye bye to engineering? But I felt like, okay, there's so many people in New York who are aspiring actors or dancers and work in bars and restaurants.

I have the luxury of actually doing consulting in engineering instead of working in a bar and there's no. Of course, I have all the respect for people working in the bar. But frankly, it's a lot easier have, yeah, I started working and I already a career. I really know everything I need to know in engineering to do consulting.

So let's keep that on the side without letting your ego take over and just jump off the boat when it's too early. So the transition lasted a few years, some six, seven years. My first engineering free year was 2015. Basically at that point, I they were calling me to get me gigs to go train [00:13:00] somebody somewhere in the world.

I'm like, I can't do this anymore because then I cannot, I'll never be able to focus on photography. I'll never be able to put all my energy there. I'll never be able to have the fear that really drives me there in place. That's needed. Otherwise, I'm going to stay a half photographer, half engineer for the rest of my life.

And I don't want that. So Stockholm taught me that. Back to your question. And New York is teaching me, still teaching me a lot. But I think the most important part was to get self awareness and realize that what's going on around you. In New York, it's so easy to go on autopilot and just in this crazy busy life doing a million things every day, day and night, and it's easy to lose track of yourself, if I can say so, or what you want and where you are and and I think that's what New York taught me starting [00:14:00] about 10 years ago.

Then I went into yoga and meditation and that was my way out. I was having a burnout because I was doing too many things.

Mica: Going, going, going.

Francesco: Going, going, going. Yoga and meditation really open up a new world. But essentially it's about self-awareness and self-love and self-appreciation.

Things that we forget so often and a that's an ongoing process, of course. It's just that I think what Yoga and meditation do for me, they, they give me tools to deal with things that will always be there. But it's easier to deal with them once you are self aware. So I think that's probably what the big lesson in New York has been.

But then on the other hand, New York is like, you know, 10 years in New York is like 30 years in Rome.

I don't know if you want to use that as a quote, but.

Mica: I've been to New [00:15:00] York once and my one prominent memory of New York, we were in this sandwich shop. And it was just this long line. We eventually made our way inside, and about ten people up ahead of me. This couple gets to the front and the cashier, she's like very brisk. What do you want? What do you want?

And she pointed at them. What do you want? The woman looked at the menu and she's like, Um, well, and she goes back of the line. Come back when you know what you want. And I was like, yes, finally. This is what I've been waiting for. My biggest pet peeve is when people decide to look at the menu when they get to the register, you had all this time while you're standing in line. You're holding up the line. So I thought that was brilliant, but then I also was like, oh crap, I need to look at the menu myself to make sure that I know what I want. And I think that sent the cue for everyone else behind her, behind this couple to know what they want.

And it just went, boom, what do you want? Got it. What do you want? Got it. Got it. Got it. Pay, pay, [00:16:00] pay. But yeah, that first couple they were a little shocked. They were like, wait, what? We've been standing in this line this whole time. You want us to go to the back? Yeah. Back of the line. Come back when you know what you want. You can do that? You can say that? Texas would never. It's so refreshing. But that's, that's my one experience. I could definitely see how busy and rush and exciting and electric and energetic New York definitely can be.

Before we were recording, you were talking about when you first moved to New York and how looking back, you found yourself in a situation where you're like, Oh God, what was I thinking?

It just reminds me so much of a interview that I had with another food photographer. She's from Germany and she chose New York for her. I was trying to figure out how to pronounce this, you guys are Erasmus, [00:17:00] Erasmus.

Francesco: Erasmus. Yeah.

Mica: Erasmus, yeah, and so she chose New York as well and she talked about how she just ventured all over the city and like in questionable parts of the neighborhood and she just, she had no idea.

She was like but now she knows those unique parts of New York. So you're when you said that, that reminded me so much of that experience. So when you first got to New York in 2012,

what 11. 2011, you got there in 2011, what was the first thing that went through your mind when you arrived?

Francesco: It was like a dream come true, even though back then I still kind of had a plan B, my engineering was not, was still there. I needed that, of course, I'd save some money so that I didn't need to work like every day in engineering, but I was still, I had big ties to engineering and still ties in Sweden as well.

I had an apartment in Sweden that I was subletting [00:18:00] and most of my. business came from Sweden. Even if they sent me to train people around the world, the company was based in Sweden. So, so I had a little bit of a plan B, which is a very good situation in a way, but in another way, it's very, very bad. I don't believe in plan Bs anymore.

Frankly but it was incredible. I felt like, okay, am I dreaming? I'm actually in New York. And this amazing city. I've always resonated. The energy of the city has always resonated with me for some reason. I always loved it. I came here several times on vacation before I decided to move and never once felt I different about the city.

And now I'm, now I'm here. So, I would just take my camera every morning and go out and take photos. Back then, I barely knew there were different genres of photography. I didn't know what kind of photographer I wanted to be. I knew I loved portraiture. Which is one of my, one of my big passions [00:19:00] and I knew that I loved capturing moments.

So all I did was walking around taking photos of the city and I started stopping strangers and taking their portrait. I'm a pretty introverted guy.

Mica: And you asked complete strangers?

Francesco: That was like therapy for me because I felt, okay, I can get better at this.

I can get better at, at interacting with people. I could see these faces, you know, they're not used to seeing these faces. You're not used to seeing so many races in the same place, coming from Europe and even things are a bit different now compared to 10 years ago, but fascinated.

And you see all these different clothes, guys, girls, men, and women dressing any way they wanted. And I'm like, Oh my God, I need to take this photo. It's like. I just couldn't refrain from taking the photo. But then I thought I don't like to steal the photo. I want them to connect with me. I want them to look at me.

It's funny because this is before, uh, [00:20:00] what's his name? What's his name? The guy who wrote did a book with all the New Yorkers and the photos. And

Mica: Oh. Oh.

Francesco: Humans of New York.

Mica: Humans of New York.

Francesco: That was before, before he became famous. And I realized I was, I was doing those things. Of course I wasn't interviewing people. There was no storytelling for me. For me, it was just about the fascination. With a face in the lighting, the light that I, that I liked. So I started collecting all this, all these faces.

Some are my website as street portraits. It was every single time it was hard because I'm not, it doesn't come natural to me to stop a stranger and ask to take a photo. In fact, it's like somebody stops me. I'm like, Hey, what do you want from me? You know? And like probably 80 percent would stop and let me take their photo.

Mica: Really?

Francesco: Yeah, and I was like, this could never happen in Italy or Sweden.

Mica: You know what say about New Yorkers. That New Yorkers are [00:21:00] not nice, but they are kind. And if you've been to New York or if you've interacted with a New Yorker, it makes a thousand cents, so I'm not surprised that every New Yorker you approached, they were willing to, to have their portrait taken.

Francesco: To me back then, I was still trying to make it as a portrait photographer. I think more than anything else. I knew I didn't want to do weddings. I knew I didn't want to do family photos. I was very fascinated by, by portraiture and also, you know, being in the city where Richard Avedon was my biggest idol in photography, by far the, the, the most amazing photographer for me.

Mica: The image the model, where she's by the elephant, and it's like a black and white image, and she has on this beautiful gown. And it just looks so elegant.

Francesco: It was special feeling to be in this city and chasing a career in portrait photography. So I had no idea what food photography was. I had never shot food. Maybe a couple [00:22:00] of things. And that's how my adventure started. But I thought that, you know, like, you know, in three, four months, I will have clients, I will start work.

I was so naive. Like you barely, you barely know people in the city. And you think that in three, four months, you're going to have even one client. But being so naive.

Mica: Maybe today that could, that could happen with the rise of social media and being able to have a much further reach but in 2011 like I could see that being.

Francesco: Yeah. It's important to stay naive to some extent. Stay that way because sometimes, you know, sometimes ignorance is bliss, really.

If I look back, I was like, I was, I was crazy, totally crazy, but it didn't feel crazy back then. Didn't feel crazy at all back then. That, that's the thing when I think when you know that you're supposed to do something that you don't see the obstacles, you just see your dream.

That's the differentiator, I think, I think the moment you feel [00:23:00] like too scared. Oh, this could happen and that could happen and that could happen that maybe that's not the right path.

For me, everything moving to Sweden was a piece of cake. Moving to New York was a piece of cake. Changing careers was not a piece of cake, but, I saw that, you know, I saw that coming. I said, yeah, this is going to happen. So that's very, very important. I The self awareness part helps you stay grounded and not go too crazy about, you know, ideas that you might have.

It's a good amount. I think you need a good amount of that, but also naivete.

You kind of need that.

Mica: If you go into a situation, I, I mentioned this earlier, that if you go into a situation and how many people have stopped themselves from trying something or doing something because of what could go wrong. One thing my therapist always reminds me of, because like before every shoot, the [00:24:00] anxiety that I experience.

It's through the roof and I'm like, what if this goes wrong? What if that goes wrong? Oh God, this is going to be a nightmare. And she reminds me, you don't have control over what could go wrong. You have control over what you can do here, what you could do now. What you do here and now, that's your choice.

You can think about everything that could go wrong and just feel sick over that. Or you can feel excited about everything that could go right. And trust that you know what to do if something goes wrong. That you've hired the right team around you to support you when something goes wrong.

So be excited and have fun with that and control that. I mean that I just constantly have to remind myself about that. Just knowing what I can control.

Francesco: Absolutely. Absolutely. I've been thinking about this too. I also before, you know, I think about this interview and things, you know, looking back at my career and stuff. [00:25:00] It's like when you start, you know, the level of anxiety is very, very high. Or you have no anxiety, which means you're totally crazy.

You have no idea what you're doing. If you are at least a little bit aware about the fact that you're actually doing business and you're, somebody's paying you to do something, you, you're going to have some anxiety. Of course the anxiety goes down as your career progresses, but I think some needs to stay there. That's fuel for me.

That's, that's absolutely necessary fuel for me. And it's funny cause I, I remember I remember watching this interview. Maybe it's 10 years ago or something with, with Pacino, with Al Pacino. And he was saying, you know, Pacino, I'm not talking about some character, some, you know, actor who just started.

It was saying that he still feels, before going on stage, theater or movie or whatever that is, it feels like some [00:26:00] anxiety and he goes like, okay, can I, can I do this? Can I really do this? And and I was saying, you know, the moment you don't feel that anymore. Time to stop.

Mica: It becomes a job at that point where that excitement, that wonder, that fear, like that care that you put into it and you're like, Oh, I really want to do well in this. Or, I don't want to screw this up. The minute it's like, Oh, I got this in the bag.

It just becomes oh, I'm wasting my time now. This is boring. I, I need to find something else to do. I'm 100 percent on board. Totally agree with that. Totally agree with that. Do you ever fear or wonder if that passion, that feeling will disappear? What do you do if you ever find yourself getting close to that feeling?

How do you pull yourself from that edge?

Francesco: It hasn't happened so far. Probably been lucky or maybe I don't know the way my career has progressed and my life has progressed.[00:27:00] Hasn't brought me into that specific situation where I felt, okay, well, I have to go and take these photos again. Also things change quite a lot when you have kids.

Mica: Oh yeah, they'll do that.

Francesco: Ha ha

No, luckily as, as it happened and I, I can say that maybe when during the pandemic that was a little bit of a crisis. Of course, for the food industry, it was, was pretty, really tough. And I suddenly had no work. I realized also that when I'm kind of low, because I don't have work or for any other reason.

I don't feel like taking photos. I'm not in the mood. Then I think, wow, when I came here, I was walking around with my camera, like glued to my hand. And now I don't even remember where the camera is because I can't bring myself to taking a photo. And I remember that I was talking to a guy that, you know, he was on the podcast, Andrew [00:28:00] Scrivani. Great guy.

Mica: Oh, yay. Shout to Andrew

Francesco: Amazing, amazing guy. And I took a workshop with, with him to kind of help me, get out of the, the rut you say, yeah. And that helped a lot. I remember that I kind of started forcing myself to start taking picture again. Take your camera, just one lens, just try, try and push yourself.

Things changed quite a lot when I started doing that, because you start to pay attention again to things that you didn't pay attention anymore, for some reason. You start to walk around. You're not just walking with one goal in mind, going from A to B, and then would do whatever you're supposed to do at B, and then go from B to C.

And all that, you start to say, okay, there's a whole world around me and it doesn't need to be food photography, but let's start taking photos again. I was a little bit going back to the basics and find out what, what gives me joy and eventually that led to, you know, nothing more than feeling, [00:29:00] feeling that the passion was still there.

Also funnily enough, when you start getting into that new energy and then you feel that things are changing a little bit then work picks up and always like that. When you're low for some reason, you know, nothing telephone never rings email no emails, no nothing.

Mica: And Just kick around a box. They're like, you bunch of losers. She's not hiring me.

Francesco: Exactly. Then you change something. You can believe that it's the universe doing that to you. You can believe that, just fate or whatever that is. It doesn't really matter. But I think the moment we start doing something to change things, then we open up the door for other things that may seem unrelated to happen, because just your mindset is, is, is different.

It's like, why do they say that meditation helps you in life. Is there some magical power that you connect to and that is actually taking care of things for you? Well, it could be, I don't know, but what I think [00:30:00] is that it gives you clarity in your mind. It gives you enough clarity so that you make better decisions.

That's what it does. You want to believe that it's a magical power. That's totally fine. I don't know, it could be, but the rational explanation that I have found is that and basically by creating, removing the noise from five minutes a day, 10 minutes a week, whatever, whatever time you can dedicate to that helps you get more clarity.

And that naturally helps you make better decisions.

Mica: I love what you said about, two things that you mentioned that I love is the first is that, not sitting in this energy changing things around you if it doesn't feel good. That's how a lot of food photographers, food stylists, like the ones who started later in their careers.

They realized that they followed that traditional path, and it's not fulfilling. You have two choices. You can either just [00:31:00] stay in that, and stay miserable. Or you can go out and try something that excites you, and it's probably ten times more work, and you're putting in more hours, but it doesn't feel that way.

It just feels so wonderful that you're doing this unconventional thing, and it's so much more fulfilling. That idea that you don't have to sit in this. I grew up poor as well , but my brothers and I, we have this mindset that it's just because we were born poor doesn't mean we're going to stay poor.

You mean to tell me that I'm the one who can get myself out of poverty by doing this, this and this, then I'll do it if that's what I need, because I'm not going to stay in this. The mindset and perspective that you have in everything from leaving Rome to going to Stockholm to coming to New York and, even during the pandemic.

I am a huge advocate for meditation, especially for people who have really [00:32:00] high anxiety, and it's wouldn't it be great to just give your brain a break, like total silence for five minutes, like how much of a weight that would take off of your shoulders?

I can do so much after this and it makes me a better photographer, a better creator because I've just had that rest that I so desperately needed. You talked about how you got into food photography that you did work for Eataly. Do you still do work for them?

Francesco: No, I haven't done it in a while.

Mica: At the time of the article you said you had done work for them for three years. That was your introduction to food photography. I want to hear more about that. What do you remember the most from that first assignment of breaking apart and looking at the insides and, tell me more about that.

Francesco: Yeah, it was, it was, it was interesting cause a friend of mine here in New York told me about that they were looking for a food photographer.[00:33:00] I wasn't shooting much food. Actually, I've done maybe a couple of things. Shooting cheese for somebody who's now is a good friend of mine. Shout out to Michelle.

Mica: I mean, that sounds like a pretty, pretty solid gig. Cheese.

Francesco: That was my very first food gig in 2012 or something. Basically he said, yo, go, go see what they want because I'm not involved in this. I contacted the marketing person and they say, yeah, I would like to do something cool with, with food. So we're going to sell products, it's going to be online, it's going to be in e commerce.

We need to find something innovative and different. And I'm like, okay, How, how, how different, how different can a professional super creative food photographer make a bag of cereal look? Compared to another less creative food photographer. The room for innovation is very limited.

So they told me, okay, here's a bag with, I don't know, five or six [00:34:00] products, go home, show us what you can do. And I'm like, okay. So I took the bag. I think there was a bar, a candy bar. It was on pasta. Those are the things I remember. Okay, so bring home, set up my own studio.

I knew about lighting and I knew all that. I started taking photos and I'm like, it's going nowhere. I mean, it's a it's pasta. Yes. I can change the lighting. I can make it, you know, you know more harsh. I can make it softer, but still there's no innovation in that. I was like, whatever. I'll just send them the photos. You know when you drop your guard and you stop thinking and it's because you're thinking too much. You're not letting your brain actually your mind yourself come out because you're you are your your mind is clouded with thoughts. Back to meditation. So I was like, okay, that's an energy bar looks great.

The packaging looks cool. What does it look inside? What does it look like? Because yeah, you can [00:35:00] see the bar, but you only can see the exterior of the bar from the picture that you have on the package. Huh. I open it up and and I broke the bar in two. And suddenly I was like, Oh, I had no idea it looked like that.

So I get my micro lens or the extension, you know how there's a extension tube that you can put on a regular, I didn't have a micro back then. I had the extension tube and I put it on and I go really close and show some Nougat stuff that was in there and with a very shallow depth of field. I was like, this is cool. What if I tell them to take one photo standard packaging or whatever that is, and then the second photo where you can show the actual product. And guess what? They love the idea. Suddenly I'd come up with something that didn't exist. I was like, yeah, this is pretty cool. And they were like, yeah, so we can have a primary photo and then people can click through and see the secondary photo that we show them what the actual product looks [00:36:00] like. And not the photo that is on the package because normally that one is very different or somehow different than what the product looks like. They were like, okay, you're going to have 500 products to photograph. This is the budget.

And as low as the budget was, it was a lot of money for somebody just starting. I'm like, really?

Mica: You photographed 500 products? Wizard. That is wizardry right there.

Francesco: They go like, you're going to have set up a studio at our office. And we have three months. I'm like, okay, I'm on vacation. I'm going on vacation to Italy next week. I got to be gone for three weeks, but okay, sure. We have two months and you know, one week. And I'm like, yeah, hell yeah, we'll do it. So can you imagine the energy and how I felt fueled by this? It's like, there's money, there's, you know, fun people around me as a great brand and, pay me [00:37:00] to do this. They're really paying to do this? Like, It was a great feeling. They gave me like a corner in the studio, probably in feet was that maybe five by eight feet, something like that.

So this is your studio. You can do whatever you want in here. It was not that big. And people were passing.

Behind me was an office space. I'm like, yeah, I can do this. I know, I knew the technical stuff. I knew lighting. I knew how to operate strobes. I knew all that stuff. Basically I would take the photo, go to the person in charge, show her the photo in my camera. So in the display. And then go back. And she said, okay, good. Go back. So I didn't, I wasn't tethering anything. I'm just like, I didn't even know that I was that I could actually tether my camera to the computer and create a different experience for the client.

I didn't know, but it was good enough. Then eventually I moved to the card, the wireless card that actually sends, I don't know if they exist anymore. They send the image to the [00:38:00] computer.

I realized that the post production was a lot of work. Enters India and freelancers across the globe.

So I was like, you know what? I should use my time to do something different. I should use my time to finish this project and maybe look for other opportunities rather than sitting in Photoshop, which I don't enjoy. I found, you know, these guys, they could do it for 59 cents photo.

They can remove the background and create a shadow. So I'd rather pay myself out of my pocket some money and get, you know, my time freed up than the other way around. So everything went well.

That was the first batch and all the e commerce, and then they were creating content pretty regularly. So I was their photographer. Then one day they said, you know, Rizzoli, the publisher might contact you. Like, sure, what do they want from me? Suddenly, Italy was doing a book. Their first book. And they were looking at me as the sole photographer for the [00:39:00] book. And I'm like, guys, are you, are you sure?

Anyway, I went there with some photos that I had of cheese. They were crazy enough to hire me. There's also another story connected to that. We can go into that if you want, but uh, it

Was it was close

It was

close

To closing my photography career, that project was went very, very close to destroying my photography career. But anyway, so, yes, let's go there. So, you know how, when you start getting things done and you can see, you know, that you're getting good, you can become a little bit arrogant? Yeah, I became arrogant. And I didn't really think too much about what I was going to photograph. So I said, I got this, I got this. I just put a light here and I got this. Eh, no. Products, okay. What I was doing worked. For food, not so much. The very bright light from the front, you know, that wasn't working.

I was so arrogant that I [00:40:00] wasn't questioning, you know, if it was working or not. Then I have to say that also on their end, they should have been more It should have been better with feedback.

Suddenly one day the guy calls me up. We're shooting, we did two shoots for a book and he goes like, Hey, I showed these photos to a friend of mine.

And he said, they're not good. And I'm like, Ooh, okay. Can you imagine how it felt like in your body? It is like your first book is like your career is on the line and you hear these things. Then I quickly go online, I'm still talking to him, for some reason, I think something had already popped up in my mind that, that didn't work, was not great enough.

A couple of days before I was looking at other food photographers and I quickly realized that, Hey, I think I'm doing something wrong. The light I'm placing there. It's not good. I shouldn't place the lights so much in the front. It should be more in the back.

I look at all these food photographers. And I'm good at looking at the photos, they never place the light in front. I think he's right.

So the moment he said that, I [00:41:00] immediately realized what I had done wrong. So, I can be very slow at certain things, but I'm a quick learner when it comes to just realizing, you know, especially with lighting, what works and doesn't work.

But I was so arrogant back then, in that project, that I didn't question things. I realized that basically the guy's right. But I also realized that I know what I need to change. So I try and put myself together again after the news that, you know, they might fire me. And I go like, Hey, I think I know what went wrong.

Can I get another chance? What if I deliver to you five or six images properly made just by myself. And you look at them, you consult with whoever professional, whatever professional person you have. Then you let me know if you want to keep me on the job. And he said, well, frankly, for me, it's easier to keep you because I don't have to restart the entire process.

You know, all the financials are in place. So yeah, if you can do that. Yeah, we'll keep you[00:42:00] and I felt really really proud that I had the clarity in my mind to actually first realize I knew already that something was wrong, but realize it during the call and also realizing what to say during the call. Okay, I'm gonna change this because I'm not gonna lose this job and I'm much better than this. Find a food stylist find a studio and do the freaking pictures.

I found a food stylist and I paid the full stylist. For that day, I paid the studio. So this became quite an expensive, you know, save for me. I created 10 pictures and I edited them. I sent five or six to him and it was like, yeah, you're good. They're great. That was a wake up call for me, because I think that tends to happen maybe to me that when I feel that things are going so well, that, oh, I know, I know that, you know, a little bit of that arrogant attitude that I hate so much in other people. And then I find myself having it. But also I was very happy that I could see that and change that very quickly. [00:43:00] So I take pride for being able to do that.

Mica: It's really difficult to take accountability and admit fault and go. Okay. I was not at my best, let me redo this. That's like the biggest level of awareness that you could do that, that you can see that about yourself and save that client and keep that going.

What line do you cross from being confident and sure versus arrogant?

Francesco: Yeah.

It's a very fine line. We go back to self awareness and just being in touch, even with just the feelings in your body. That you feel when somebody is saying something is communicating something to you. I remember like vividly, the feeling I had in my stomach when he said those words, like, we're not sure we can keep you on this project.

I felt my entire world was collapsing. This was my big chance, book with a super, like a huge publisher. I also felt a little bit like I was jeopardizing my chance. Like [00:44:00] subconsciously going against myself, maybe because I felt I was an imposter.

I was still an engineer, I didn't belong there and all those things. But yeah, the line is very, very subtle. You need to be humble and, and, and you need humility to approach things, but also you need to be firm and you need to just be aware of what you can do.

It's a constant exercise because also the jobs, the type of projects they change all the time, they can be very different. One approach they used last time, maybe it's not going to work the same way or as well the next time. But yeah, it's a good question, how, how you, how to balance that so you don't become too arrogant or too scared and too anxious about things, you know, that you think you, you're not, you might not be able to do.

Mica: You hit it on the nail when you said that, at some point, are you just like self sabotaging yourself? So many photographers, they don't realize that they're doing that. Like [00:45:00] they talk themselves out of a job or, this seems like too good of an opportunity. Where's the other shoe?

Is it going to drop? And when they approach a project with that kind of energy, that I feel like an imposter. Why is this company looking at me? I couldn't possibly be that good. I feel like that is just as bad as being, if not worse, being arrogant. You're speaking gospel over here. I'm, I'm loving it. Your work is a fine balance between portraiture and food. At what point in your career did you start realizing that food was something that you were good at and felt passionately about?

Francesco: I love being, shooting portraits.

Mica: Love your

Francesco: and, and that's, oh, thank

Mica: The people you photograph, you're just so great at capturing their eyes and everything I need to know about that person. I just see the joy in their eyes.[00:46:00] I love that you get like real close.

It's very intimate. There's not distractions. It's just us focusing on this person and wondering what are they doing right now? What has led them to this moment, to this connection? What happened after the photo? Did you talk afterwards? What did you talk about? What would that person think and feel years after seeing this photo of themselves?

Will they remember that interaction as much as the photographer does? I love looking at portrait work. It's not the same love as food. Food brings something else to me. What does food bring to you? How do you get that same love and connection with food that you would with a person?

Francesco: First of all, I saw the photo. Yeah, I love that photo. It's one of my favorites.

Mica: Such a great photo?

Francesco: I really love it. Well, I approach them the same way because for me, everything starts from [00:47:00] something that is appealing to the eye and definitely my eye, hopefully other people's eyes, but, and that, that, that starts with lighting. Your light is, you know, to me is 80 percent of your photo.

I treat them the same way, in that perspective, so they need to be lit properly. So for me, the portrait of a person and the portrait of food is still a portrait. So much easier to shoot food. So much easier. In the worst case, you have food that is slightly changing as time passes, if you're not quick enough.

But in some other cases, the food is there and you have all the time. With a person is very, very different. From the technical perspective, light is, is key and is what I need to nail. And that is what makes me feel something inside. With portraiture, you get the extra dimension that is the connection that you have with a person. Whereas with food, yes, you might have a connection in terms of history behind the food or things that maybe it's a food that you used to eat when you were young. Maybe there are [00:48:00] connections, you know, emotional connections with your family or your background, whatever that is, but it's something that it's more in you and it's not evolving so much during the shoot.

If you're shooting person, you know, that evolves, you know, every, every split second, something different. So whatever you say is going to affect that person. Whatever that person is doing, it might affect what you're going to say next. The, the level of connection and being present in the moment with portraiture, you don't have with food.

They're both beautiful because I look for the beauty, the nice light and, and that. And so the way I approach them is the same, but it's so much deeper when it comes to, to portraiture and to a level that you know, it can't describe because you cannot know how things are going to, are going to go.

You have another person right in front of you. With ice cream, you know, it's going to melt, fine. That's something you to take into account, but that's all. It's going to melt in the same way. It's going to melt today. And it's going to melt tomorrow. And [00:49:00] the guy in front of me is doing something today that you will not do tomorrow.

And even if we will do something similar, it's not going to be exactly that 120, 125th of a second kind of action freeze that you're going to get on him. So, that's why I find them not that different. I would say that being so comfortable with people and with portraiture helps me a lot because 60 percent of my work is with restaurants.

And in most cases, it's not just food. There's personnel, there's a chef, there's a kitchen, even a line cook that is cutting something. So you need to be comfortable with taking photos of people. And I'm not talking about the technical part, you know, lighting and all that, that, that, that's easy to learn.

I mean, anybody can learn that, but you need to deal with people who might be under a lot of stress because the restaurant is open.

And then also it helps when you have some celebrity chef in front of you who doesn't want to do the things that you ask them to do.[00:50:00] So you need to be able to navigate that too. Most of these people are used to being photographed, but sometimes they are too used and they want to take over and wanted to decide more and, you know, sometimes it's okay.

Sometimes it's not, but that's a huge part. The other part, that comes from maybe my street photography background is capturing the moment. The backstage, the prepping of food. A lot of times we shoot either in the kitchen or outside the kitchen, but it looks like a kitchen and people prepping, just moving their hands, cutting things and, and just the capturing that, that moment.

You definitely need to be there in that moment and also some sort of sensitivity to what's going on and being aware also that you're in the middle of kitchens are not that big in New York normally. So. There's always somebody bumping you and passing by and, and all that.

Everything comes actually pretty handy doing food photography and restaurant photography. That's, that's, that's very, very cool.

Mica: What you said about ice cream, that it could melt and you know it's gonna melt so you can [00:51:00] plan ahead. You can't do that people. I believe that every food photographer should put themselves in a situation where they don't have a lot of control over the elements. Doing something that, Where you have to be very flexible and go with the flow will make you such a better food photographer for whatever could go wrong, especially if you're working with chefs and restaurants.

Don't get me wrong. I've met so many wonderful chefs, but I've also met chefs who are just not in the mood for me or for my camera, and they want me in and they want me out.

Francesco: Yes, the chef or whoever is there that you need to photograph can be an ass, you know. But the thing is that they're doing their job. We, the marketing team or whoever, we're asking them to do something extra. While they're doing their, their job, their first priority is to get the kitchen working and [00:52:00] everything working there as much as my first priority is to get the great picture of you.

So there might be a conflict there and we need to be. respectful of what's going on and just don't dismiss that as arrogance or somebody who doesn't want to help because maybe they have big problems. Maybe somebody didn't show up today and it's the day that we're supposed to shoot.

Let's always assume that person is doing their best to, to help and not necessarily, it's not that they don't like you or they bother you, but you know, maybe that person is very stressed. I don't take it personally if they say fuck off, I don't want to take this photo or come back in two hours or whatever it is. I, I know they're under pressure.

Mica: Very true.

Francesco: One of the lines that separates, pros from amateur or semi pros and whatever way you want to define that, but being able to roll with the dice and say, Hey, okay, is it better if I come back in half an hour? I can go shoot the dishes now and then we come back.

Maybe it's easier, you know but just have that, that sensitivity and also realizing that [00:53:00] the guy is probably has nothing against you. And, and work with that. It's still your job to get the photo taken.

Those things are things that young photographers don't realize that they're so important. We're delivering much more than just images or videos, whatever content. We're delivering the experience of working with us.

Each of us is a brand. And we deliver an experience. Say that there's a food that you love and they have a restaurant and they make this amazing food. And it's a very same restaurant as a food truck and the food is exactly the same, exactly the same.

But the experiences are very, very different if you get your food from the food truck and then compared to going to a restaurant and having a meal, you know, for an hour and a half. Extremely different experiences, yet the food is exactly the same. What we need to strive and do better.

And that's, I put a lot of effort, a lot of energy into making the experience as good as possible, as painless as [00:54:00] possible for the client. I'm not saying enjoyable, hopefully enjoyable, but definitely painless. Smooth sailing from the moment they contact you and they need a quote to the moment you invoice and then you maybe touch base to get some feedback or whatever you do.

It's really, really important. That's, that's like hospitality in photography. it's not hospitality in photography, but the photography of hospitality. How would you call that? Anyway, you

understand.

Mica: I understand.

Francesco: In the.

Mica: Your bedside manner.

Francesco: Exactly.

on

Ultimately we are service providers.

We are providing services. And when I purchase a service I purchased the entire thing and I want to enrich that service so that I give value that goes beyond just the beautiful images that so many people can take. Very hard to differentiate yourself on an image level.

Because there are so many people where you can take images but can they take them under stress? Can [00:55:00] they take them when you're in the kitchen? Can they take them when, Hey, hey, you sent me two dishes and one of them is melting and I don't have time to do Can you do that? Photographers sometimes don't realize that they have it and they need to promote, not promote it, but make it aware that they can offer so much more. And sometimes clients don't realize that they're actually purchasing so much more than just images. Then they're like, okay, the images are great, but also it was so easy to work with this guy.

It was the easiest thing and then you can pay online and then you can, it's like everything is automated as much as possible. So I, I, I aspire to that frankly.

Mica: Absolutely. If there's anything I've learned so far, as a freelancer is that people will go out of their way to experience a good experience. I want to talk about your book with the baseball collector. We were talking about that earlier. I could hear just how much his passion rubbed off on you. [00:56:00] You still talk about it with so much like happiness and joy. So tell me about the book. What were your expectations going into this project?

Were those expectations the same when you left the project?

Francesco: Actually the way the book came about by itself, I think it's pretty amazing because normally, especially in New York, everybody's so specialized and if you are looking for somebody to take photographs of baseball artifacts and memorabilia. You're going to try and find somebody who's already done that or something very similar.

What I was not expecting was an art director that could see okay, if this guy's so good at taking photos of food. If he can bring food to life in this way, he's going to be able to bring objects to life in the same way. And normally people don't do that. I was so amazed that actually I even got the job and I asked her why.

She said, yeah, that, that was the reason, what I just [00:57:00] said. So that was incredible. I didn't know what I was walking into because I'm not a baseball fan. I don't think I'll ever become a baseball fan. I mean, I didn't become a baseball fan after shooting this book. So I don't think it's going to happen.

Mica: What was the name of the book?

Francesco: Game Worn. Like jerseys and stuff that was actually worn during the game. So real stuff. It was one of the most amazing things that, that I've done, but I had no idea what it was walking into. And I was even questioning if I should take the job. I mean, of course, Miss Smithsonian knocks on the door, you open the door and let them in.

But then it's like, okay, it's going to be a lot of days in different parts of the world with a person. I don't know. Wow. Well, guess what? I still don't love baseball. I still couldn't care less about the memorabilia, but the energy that this guy brought on set and his passion for the stories that he was telling, because he was the author. He was telling such amazing stories with such a passion that [00:58:00] I fell in love with, not baseball, but the way his passion in approaching the subject. So it's not about a list of objects, you know, there's a story for each object. This jersey was worn by this guy in 1939 during this game.

Or this guy, there's a story of this guy who had a stalker, a woman stalker, who actually shot the guy. But, the, the bullet lodged somewhere near, I think he had a Bible or something. Like, you know in the movies when they, the bullets. It was something like that. Anyway, so, he told me this story, and so we had to recreate the setting where we could show the bullets on a table, the jersey of the guy, and all this thing.

So it was incredible to work with him. A super high energy guy, finance guy. I don't know how he found the time to write a book. That really reinforced my conviction that I have now that, it's really important to to work with people [00:59:00] that you like and you know, what you're doing might be secondary, even secondary compared to the fact that you're working with this person or this team, it's so valuable.

And I strive a lot to try and put myself in situations where I like the client as much, the client in terms of persons that I work with as much as I like what I'm shooting. Of course, it's not easy in the beginning when you don't have any work, but I think for young photographers, it's really important to keep in mind.

Maybe you have it in the back of your mind that eventually you want to kind of find the right clients for you. And I know it's not easy in the beginning. You take whatever you get because you need to make money, but then it should be an aspiration. Also makes everything more sustainable, makes your energy and your passion. Anyway, so this experience was so incredible.

We became friends. We're, we're still friends. And I went all around the U S shooting collections of stuff, setting up studios in homes and and that deal was kind [01:00:00] of, it was kind of doing the art direction. He was telling me the story and then I would help him recreate the story with some artifacts and the proper lighting.

We ended the, the project in Hong Kong, where he lives. So I set up studio in his home. It's funny we're not talking about food photography.

Mica: I, it amazes people when guests, when they come on, they're like, this is a food photography podcast and and we're not talking a lot about food. And I go, oh, but we are.

Francesco: No,

fine. Frankly, it's fine. I'm not here to promote anything. It's like, I, enjoy the conversation. I enjoy talking to you and I enjoy sharing stuff. People might find valuable in terms of, you know, inspiration. And and so this, this project became so, so incredible. I was in Hong Kong for, I think, eight days. Shooting all this stuff and and and then in the US I think we were in six or seven locations and he would travel with me. I can imagine these people are all wealthy people because, you know, if you can collect this stuff like a Jersey, $5 million, [01:01:00] stuff like that, it's like, wow, wow.

Mica: I got a jersey, if any millionaires want to buy it for five million.

Francesco: So it was, it was very, very interesting, and I'm very happy that I, I, I took the job. The expectations were, were exceeded by miles and miles because I almost took the job only because of the prestigious client, Smithsonian, and you know, the money, of course, then I didn't know what I was walking into and so much more came along and it was just incredible.

Mica: You mentioned, the word passion. I wonder going into this shoot, did it change your perspective on what passion looks like or what it feels like?

Francesco: I don't know if it changed my perspective, but I, I didn't know that somebody else's passion could rub off on me.

That I wasn't expecting. I was expecting that either I have passion for what I'm [01:02:00] photographing, or the fact that it's going to become a book. I had no idea that I could fall in love with somebody else else's passion.

Not his passion, not the passion he has for those things. It's such an incredible experience and realization. It has made also me more open to listen to things that I think I would be interested in. So maybe I'm not interested in, I don't know, cars, but maybe I'm interested in the way this guy talks about cars.

Mica: Yes.

Francesco: And that's, that's cool. That's, that's very, it's very refreshing and it's very. It's enriching for sure.

Like to say one more thing that I think, because some people I see that, of course, it people get courage from seeing somebody like me who was an engineer and decided to, you know, throw all that away. The fact that you have a passion for photography, whatever that could be, or a passion in general, I don't think it's a reason good enough [01:03:00] to just quit your job.

There's an equally viable way to approach this. I'm not saying you should, you should not follow your passion. I'm saying that for some people, maybe, having that as a hobby, stress free hobby, is the way. Maybe it's still better for some people to keep their job and make room for you know your hobby and use the money you get from your job to finance your hobby or whatever that is. What I'm trying to say.

It is there's no one size fits all answer to these and And I definitely encourage people to try and follow their passion, but I also try and say that, Hey, this, you're not a failure if you decide actually consciously to keep it as a hobby and have a lot of fun without the stress.

Mica: Take the pressure off of having to worry about making ends meet, reaching your bottom line. That can sometimes just suck the [01:04:00] life out of it. I appreciate you being here so much.

Francesco: No abs. Absolutely. I think it's, it's important, but don't get me wrong, I, I, I think everybody should, should try what they feel like, like doing.

Nobody is picturing that when they think about photographers, they think about this, this glamorous career. Either if you're doing fashion or you're even if you're doing food. Oh, I go to all these restaurants, they don't see that that's like 10 percent or 20 percent of, of the entire thing.

Mica: We don't see it because a lot of us don't show it, especially on social media. We don't show the, the behind the scenes of what it takes to get the job, what happens when we get a lead. The phone calls that take place, the estimates that we send over. I love that more and more photographers are opening up that side of the business, and being more open about that, and giving people who are thinking about entering this field a more full picture. But I want to finish this [01:05:00] interview with one super last question.

What do you hope the listeners learn from today's episode?

Francesco: I would say if I just end with something that is very personal to me. It's just you know regrets. I I don't want to have regrets So I need to do and act in a way So that I minimize the amount of regrets when I look back. Because if I do that I can look back and feel at peace that I did what I could with the information that I had back then, of course, you know, otherwise it's too easy to judge your past. But utilize that so that you can be at peace with your decisions.

That's key in life, you know independently of if we're talking about photography or, or something else. Try and minimize the amount of regrets and so act accordingly and then look back and be as much as peace as you can possibly be.

Mica: I love that. Where can the listeners find you? Follow you? [01:06:00] Reach out to you?

Francesco: Online. Yeah, Francesco Sapienza. I should pop up pretty easily if you just Google Francesco Sapienza. If you add food photographer, then yeah, you're gonna hit for sure. There's another great Francesco in New York. I don't think you have interviewed him. At least yet.

Mica: Not You mentioned him in one of your interviews that he's your favorite food photographer.

Francesco Tonnelli.

Francesco: Tonelli. Yeah. He is an amazing guy, very talented photographer. And I've had the pleasure to meet him privately a few times. Yeah. Yeah.

It's great because we are such a community that sometimes we kind of, afraid to be in touch because we're kind of competing, competing in a way.

Then you realize that everybody's struggling with very similar things and everybody has something to share that you can learn. And just pure friendship when business aside. There's amazing people and he's, yeah, he's, he's a great great person.

Mica: Thank you so much for coming on the show, [01:07:00] for giving, all this wisdom. This is an incredible, incredible experience. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Francesco: Thank you for having me on. This was a lot of fun. You're fantastic. I love your energy and I listen to you all the time. I love the fact that we didn't go into the technicality of food photography because frankly, that's secondary and I think it's about people it's about how you approach business. So this was fantastic.

Can't wait to to listen to this.

Mica: Ah, yes. Again, thank you for being on the show. I just I learned so much. This is wonderful.

Francesco: You're welcome. It's been a pleasure.

[01:08:00]