Mica: [00:00:00] I was like, it's broken. All right. We're recording. Yay. Thank you so much for joining me and sharing your wisdom with, with all the I'm assuming by the time your episode comes out, I'm gonna have a bazillion listeners. So bazillion listeners
Joanie: obviously, well, the honor is all mine. Your name came into my inbox. I was like, whatever she's selling, I'm buying. Yes. Like let's do this
Mica: I do not have to be a salesman for this.
Joanie: No, no, no, no. You you've invested a lot of emotional equity and making connections and I always appreciate your, your insights and perspectives. And I'm just so thrilled that you're putting this content out content out in the world.
Mica: Oh, thank you. When you accepted the invite, I ran into the living room. I told Aaron, my husband, I was like she said yes. [00:01:00] And he's like, who? Who said yes. I said, Joanie she said, yes. Okay, cool. I'm watching pinky blinders. Can you can you,
Joanie: now.
Mica: yes. He's like, can you head it on outta here? I was like, all right, well, one day, one day.
You'll get it. But yeah, he's super supportive, but I wanna dive right into this because I'm a warn you right now. I got so many questions to ask you. Not, not to scare you.
Joanie: I like, I like a little bit of fear, cause that means we're on the edge of something really exciting. You know, it's like that happy place of, um, being slightly uncomfortable is never a bad thing cause it, it initiates growth and insight and we don't need, we don't need no more comfort zones.
Right.
Mica: exactly. EV my, my, uh, photography professor always [00:02:00] told us if you are like comfortable in the studio, like what work you're doing, it's time to do some something new time to like, get a new project and get uncomfortable. That's where the growth happens. So I'm glad that, uh, we can do this. So what was, what was your life like before you started your food, photography business?
Joanie: Immediately before it I had a couple different jobs. So I was working for the family business selling point of sale systems to restaurants, which this was circa 2010. So things weren't as sophisticated and tablet-y and cloud based. It was all kind of more old school computers that cost many tens of possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars selling to restaurants.
And I did not come up. My background in education was not in sales or business. It was in fine arts and then in counseling, but come to find out that once we get into [00:03:00] the land of sales, I found that yes, like I'm a female on a team of otherwise all male colleagues who are in their forties and fifties who fit sort of your, maybe more stereotypical salesperson idea.
Um, and so I was sort of this screw loose, but my dad owned the business. So yay for nepotism and getting jobs that way. Cause I, I needed a change in career. I'd been working in higher education and counseling and I was burned out on that and like thinking, you know, I'm working 80 hours a week making $30,000 a year.
Like, and I don't want my boss's job. This is not where I wanna continue. So got a job family business ended up being put on the sales team and turns out having a counseling degree actually makes you a really strong sales person because it's all about being present and listening and hearing the things that people are saying and reading between the lines and you know, people think sales is.[00:04:00]
This total manipulation. And how do we work people over to get to, you know, strong arm them to convince them to do a thing that we want 'em to do when in reality, the best approach and the approach that I continue do to use now in my photography business is let's make a personal connection. Let me find out about your business.
Let me find out about what's difficult for you, what problems you're having and how can I potentially pair what it is that I'm selling. To solve your problems and make your life easier and make your life better. And turns out counseling skills come in really handy. So ended up performing really well as a salesperson on that team got promoted to sales manager.
So I was overseeing the, uh, sales team and of course bringing my background in higher education counseling and student leadership development to, um, you know, Institute sales, training, things like that. Mm-hmm . And then though at a certain point, and I think a lot of us and yourself included can relate.
You're working a job [00:05:00] that you're like. I'm good at this. I can do this. I'm being paid well for this, but there's something inside of me that is a creative person that needs to work with my hands and needs to create beautiful things. And I have always, ever since I was a little kid been watching food network and, you know, Julia child, and Yan can
cook.
And some of those, you know, old school people that you'd watch on PBS and I just always loved food. And so I came to this moment of personal realization at going. I, I can't continue down this path. There were a lot of other personal things going on in my life as well, including, um, coming to terms with my, uh, addiction in terms of, I, you know, I'm an alcoholic, uh, in recovery now, uh, it's sober seven years, but you know, at
the time. Thank you. Um, but coming to terms with, uh, that kind of personal crossroads of knowing, [00:06:00] like I'm not in a happy place, I'm not in a healthy place. I need to heal my se I need to heal. Um, I also need to be doing something that feeds my creative soul. And so like had, you know, kind of. One of these divine intervention moments while on a sales call, like sitting in the parking lot and going, I need to quit my job and like drove straight to my dad's office and said, I need to give you my notice right now.
I mean, I'm in tears, I'm a mess. And now he's the sweetest ever. I've shared this, uh, story on my YouTube channel and, you know, talking about how his response was just like, I mean, much gratitude to him by saying, you know, it's okay. We'll figure it. No problem, you know, so I was pretty much out of there. It took a little while, cause of course I was sales manager at that point and pretty, pretty well embedded in the organization.
But uh, yeah, I quit my job and it was officially May 1st, 2015 was my first day of self-employment. Although I had no clue what I was gonna be doing. Uh, [00:07:00] but, uh, but I'd always, I I'd been dabbling in food blogging since before food blogs had beautiful pictures when everybody was just like taking these really awful, you know, orange-y underexposed photos and.
posting them on Zenga and Other early food life strip, like, yeah, since like 2005, 2006, I've been blogging. And so I thought, well, I'm seeing these people like these pinch of Yum people, and I'm seeing this Sally baking addiction lady, and like they're publishing these reports of what they're making and well shoot, I guess maybe I should give that at a try cuz I like to cook and I can take pictures.
And so that's really like how the camera landed in my hands and having that kind of moment of break to say, okay, I'm doing something new. And then it's like, once you start following down that path, you know, the evolution the evolution begins and it's by no means a straight path. Uh, it leads towards some very random directions and [00:08:00] places, but that's eventually how, uh, the camera became my full-time my full-time gig.
Mica: I love that. I love that. And I love what you said earlier about, you know, sitting in the car and like, accepting, like, look. I I'm good at what I do. I can do this, but I gotta quit and telling your dad like, Hey, this is my, this is my last day. Like I'm putting in my notice. So that brings me to this. So you officially left your job April 30th, 2015.
Take me back to May 1st, the very first day after you left your job, what do you remember about that day?
Joanie: Yeah. You know, it's so funny cause yeah, I don't remember a lot because it was definitely, I look back on that time and go, how the heck did I do that? Because like bigger context was at the time my husband would stay at home with our two little guys and they were real little [00:09:00] at that point. They, I mean, if I do the math, they were like one and a half and three.
Three and a half.
So they were
little right. And he was full-time at home with them. So I was the full-time breadwinner and, you know, so it was like, and, and I quit the job without telling him I was gonna do it. Like I came home and I was like, so babe, I just, I just quit my job. And bless this man. Like, he was so patient with me, he's been here for all of my wild adventures and hair-brained ideas and been like that.
He believed in me throughout that whole process is nothing short of a miracle. But, um, but yeah, I mean, we were also just from a financial standpoint, we had just refinanced our house. Um, and so instead of a kitchen remodel, it was the, here's the money we're gonna have in the bank to keep us alive for mm.
Maybe six months and we'll figure this out and so, uh, my husband went back into, he's always had his real estate license. He was what, 1999, he's had his [00:10:00] license since, um, he was like 18 years old and highly motivated. So he went back to doing real estate. But so then that was one of the things that in the process of recovery, I was seeing a therapist who really helped kinda lead me along in that process.
And she said, you know, she knew that the big problem that I had was is this sort of very driven a. Type Personality. I never rested. I never took time to like, let the dust settle because as long as I'm working, as long as I'm doing this stuff, I don't have to focus on my feelings. I don't have to sit. And, you know, so, um, she said the important part about this now is that we called it may play, uh, is that you need to take the entire month of may to literally do nothing and not be productive and not have that define you and allow this healing to take place.
And that was really hard, you know? I mean, a lot of us think, oh, wow, what a luxury? Um, I would say, yeah, if you don't have suddenly like this thing of, like, I [00:11:00] gotta figure out how to make this work, but, um, you know, it, it was such a good. Such a good practice and it was unnerving and it was frustrating and as like, you know, somebody's action oriented that first day.
And for that whole month, it's like, okay, I'm supposed to be resting, focus on resting. Gosh, darn it would you rest? And then it's like, but I really wanna go work on this thing, but I really had to discipline myself and take that time to rest. Um, but I tell you, June one came and I. was Like building the website, doing the things, setting it all up, getting it figured out.
Right? Like it was
like the floodgate opened June 1st. So, um, and you know, we had some, we took an opportunity to, you know, I was like, okay, we gotta do some sort of like experience and it's may and the kids were little, so they weren't really in school. So we went down, I've got this old blog post. I'll share it with you.
It is hilarious. And it is the most terrible family vacation you could ever imagine. Cause we didn't have a lot of money and we were like, but we wanna go to San Diego cause it's only six hours from [00:12:00] Phoenix. And so we're like, we're gonna go to San Diego. We're gonna take the kids to, you know, the zoo and we're gonna go to the beach.
But like. I don't know where our brains were, but we were so ill prepared for this trip. Like Ryan didn't bring any change of clothes. We didn't bring enough pants for the kids who were in diapers. And like, we stayed. I was like, I got this genius idea to book a cheap Airbnb, which was a boat, but it was like a dingy and it was, oh my gosh, like, I'll send you the blog post the pictures.
Like
Mica: I've
Got to see this.
boat
Joanie: So we always joke about, remember that time in 2015, we had the boat times, you know, this, we had this, but it was one of these things too, where, you know, in life you get down to what's most essential and what's most basic. And like the beauty of that time was because I really had let go of so much.
And so much of this desire to be perfect that we were, I, [00:13:00] I actually really enjoyed it. Yes. It was like a hot mess. And like, my youngest is in, you know, the San Diego zoo with no pants on, he's just wearing a diaper. And like, I, there were so many things that went wrong. Ryan ended up with barbecue stains on his shirt, but it was the only shirt he had.
And like, it was a mess, but, you know, we just had so much fun and I'm so thankful for, um, experiences like that. Cuz I think that that's like such a refining moment to make you so much more grateful than when it's like. Down the road, when things start to work out and things start to click, I'm like, gosh, like, you know, it really sets such a beautiful baseline.
So yeah, the boat times , I'll send you that blog post.
Mica: I wanna read that blog post and you raise a good point about, you know, that period about how it spills into your career and just kind of makes you appreciate the good times, but also it teaches you that not every [00:14:00] shoot is gonna go perfectly. Not everything in your life is gonna go perfectly. So you accept what you can't change and you change what you can, if you care enough about it, like,
Joanie: Yes.
Mica: or, you know, you take whatever bad experience and you go, okay, what can I apply?
What did I learn from this trip that I can apply the next trip? So that doesn't happen again or whatever, you know, there's so many different things to take away from that period, but also just perfectly imperfect.
I
Joanie: I
hadn't thought about that. I think that's such a great point. I, I hadn't thought about it that way, but it really is such an illustration for the way, like building your own business goes absolutely.
Mica: yes. Yes. Aaron likes to plan things to a tea. And I don't, because I, I have such different energies when I plan things, versus when I'm actually in it, you know, like that's why I, I meal plan, air [00:15:00] quote, meal plan, but like, come Thursday, I'm like, well, it says I'm supposed to have meatloaf, but I don't really feel like meatloaf.
So let's just, yeah. I was like, let's just get some barbecue, that type of thing. so I don't like to plan things, but I get what you mean. Like that may play being a really hard time
because you're. Gosh, I just, I left my job. I gotta get this going. I gotta make this work. I got six months, seven months, eight months.
I gotta make this work and da, da, da, but forcing yourself to go look, I need this rest because once I hit the ground running, there's no stopping. There's no rest for the wicked. I'm gonna keep going and keep going and keep going. So take this time and, and rest. What is something that still scares you as a business owner?
Even now?
Joanie: I mean, I think that I continue to, I, I think that as we continue to achieve and we achieve certain levels of success and that there's this thought that suddenly I [00:16:00] will have this sense of security and permanence and like I've made it. And I just think that's such a myth. Like you've never made it. And I think it is very normal to have.
You know, in talking with other colleagues and other people like who I respect. And I, and I continue to have this feeling myself of like, well, what if it all goes away tomorrow? What if suddenly it all disappears? And, um, you know, it, you can go to a scary place with that and start to, um, become disabled.
by the Fear of thinking, like, you know, you just get so overwhelmed or you go, or it can kind of go scary in the other direction that you work so hard to like, avoid that happening as opposed to kind of sitting in the gratitude of the moment and being present with that and going, yeah, there are no guarantees for tomorrow and, and that's, that's life
Mica: Yeah.
Joanie: so what can I, what can I control today? And I think you said it [00:17:00] perfectly, the idea of what can I control and what's not in my control and, and knowing, I mean, I think that I'm also, I don't discount the intense, um, how, how fortunate I am and how blessed I am to know that, you know, if it, I always think back to like, again, how, how did I take such a massive risk when I first started out to leave my job and not have a plan and have no prospects and, you know, but I, I come back to the I am very fortunate in having a wonderful family that I knew, like. If worst came to worst, we could move in with my in-laws, you know, we could,
which, you know, talk about a motivator to succeed. You know, you don't wanna move in with your in laws, but like, I am very blessed in that sense to have a network of people to rely on and for support.
And I know that not everybody has that. So I count that, um, very lucky, but I think that that's something that I continue to also come back to. Um, you know, in, in times when maybe that [00:18:00] fear of, oh gosh, like right now, you know, we're in an uncertain time in. History. And there's a lot happening. That's big and scary in the world, and there's a lot financially that's going on, um, you know, in our immediate world.
And so what does that mean for six months from now? Well, I don't know. And nobody knows. And a lot of people like to spend a lot of time on the news talking about it, and that's not a healthy place for me to hang out. So it's best for me to really just focus on how can I do what it is that I do well spend as much time as possible doing the things that I'm super talented at and focusing on how I can bring more value to my clients, to the members in my communities.
Um, continue to show up despite whatever fear you know, is lurking around the corner, cause we can definitely get caught up in that.
Mica: Yeah. That I totally get that. And, and you raise a good point about not stressing over what can happen in [00:19:00] six months because we don't know what's gonna happen. And you know, what we can control is.
Joanie: Mm-hmm
Mica: you know, we can have hopes and dreams for what we hope happens in six months, but we're not, we're not Houdini's we're, you know, we haven't figured out the concept of time.
What we have is today and focusing on today. I,
I
Joanie: Mm.
Mica: dang, man. You're good. I love that.
Joanie: Tell you, so the accumulation of a lot of, a lot of smart people around me, I'd say I didn't come up with any of these ideas. It's mostly, you know, finding myself. And I think that's something that can be hard too, as a, as a food photographer and as a content creator and somebody whose you know, work is very solo is you really gotta work hard to maintain relationships.
You know, both, you know, family, friends, people inside the out industry, outside the industry. People further, along in their journey than you, who can really kind of provide that [00:20:00] assurance to go, yeah, there's no guarantees, but you know, at the end of the day,
Yeah.
can you check in and say, Hey, I woke up today.
You know, whatever that barometer is for you and where you're at today. So, you know, I've gotta meditation practice that I've been working hard at for the better part of the last year. I'm still not great at it, but in today's meditation, I just really loved is like, yeah, we we've got today and not everybody has that luxury.
Right. Some people didn't wake up today. And so that was just really, um, you know, a good centering practice for me to go, okay, I'm here and I've got wonderful, amazing people around me. And I get to talk to Mica today and you know, this is, this is, uh, this is amazing. So yeah, I think that no matter where you're at in your journey, you're gonna slip into moments of fear.
Um, you know, Cause you look at these people, you know, maybe folks who look at my business and go, oh wow. If only, and Joanie's gotta feel so solid and she's gotta feel like she's had, oh, I do not have it all [00:21:00] figured out. I am here to tell you, uh, if you were a part of my team and seeing the hot mess that I have created on my websites and you know, all these things that it's like so shiny on the outside I'm like, oh, if you only knew, but you
Mica: Yes. And I, I wanna bring a point that you brought up earlier where you said, you know, I can't, you can't, I can't figure out, or I can't believe that I, you know, left my job and without knowing where the financial situation's gonna be. And I was the breadwinner, you know, that reminded me of a lesson that my photographer, uh, Frank Curry, shout out to Frank,
who recently called me a go getter.
I love you but he, um, he said that he did not have a backup plan when he decided to become a photographer and, and this doesn't work for everyone, but for him, it did. because he knew that if he had something to fall back on that he [00:22:00] wouldn't give it his hardest, he wouldn't try his hardest and that he would like operate with the knowing that there's something else to fall back on.
And so I think it's more prevalent for, for folks like us who have did they did the college thing, got the, the grown up job. And then they decide to go into freelancing. They're this is it. Like, we, we know what's on the other side. So we're making this work no matter how hard, how long, how many obstacles that come in, our way it's happening.
And so for anyone who is at that place in their life, and they're like, I don't know if I should do it now because you already know what's on the other side. It's, it's the grown up job. And if you're a creative person, I mean, not, not that freelancing, isn't a grown up job, but like the typical stereotypical classical.
Grownup job that most creative people just don't thrive in. That's definitely something [00:23:00] that, um, you wanna leave. I want to pivot to cuz I took your course, the it's called profitable pricing right now, but uh, it it was called full-time frameworks. Did I get that mixed up? Is it it's profitable pricing now?
Joanie: So.
Mica: frameworks. When you tell me about that.
Joanie: it's a little bit of a shift. So when you went through it, it was profitable price or, uh, full time framework, which was, I think I ran it five times, maybe six times mm-hmm um, and it was more of an all encompassing soup to nuts on like, you know, setting up your business, going through the marketing, your website, um, pricing, doing the shoot, kind of the whole, the whole kit and caboodle.
Um, but what was interesting and that certainly was fun. I think it was, um, It was a challenge for me to run that course, uh, because I became very [00:24:00] personally invested in the members of the course to the point of feeling very responsible for other people's businesses, which I think there's a healthy place where that can live because I do want, you know, I want, I think that that responsibility toward the members of any course that I provide is important and is what brings value to it.
But I think that it also then can go to a bad place of then if somebody's not succeeding, then I feel like a failure. And I think that I can't, it's not my responsibility to, you know,
make everybody's dreams come true. Right. Like
the, the rubbers gotta meet
the road It's a two way
street,
Mica: You're you provide the information and then what everyone else does with it. That's I mean,
the baby birds out your hands, but I get what you mean. It, it, you take a personal invested interest. What were your expectations when you started this course?
Joanie: Um, so what I had noticed, and I mean, this is definitely how I've developed courses over time is [00:25:00] that it was just a resounding need from the community, from people on YouTube, from people on social media, people in my existing course, which, um, was the lighting course artificial academy. And so there were folks, you know, were like, we just need to know what to do, right.
Because there's like you, I think a lot of. us Myself included come like kind of accidentally find yourselves in this industry. Like the first time I ever did a job, it was because I was doing stuff for a podcast that I'd had many moons ago and was doing photos of like the signature dish and the picture of the chef to post on my, you know, website for the podcast I was running.
And they're like, oh, you're clearly a photographer. I'm like, I'm not a photographer, but they're like, you know what you're doing? You have a fancy camera. Can you come in and shoot the rest of our menu? And I'm like, kinda like we were saying before I even started, I was like, yes, absolutely. I do that. And then I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing.
And [00:26:00] you do that first job and you learn what you learn. I do remember that very first job. Uh, you know, I think I shot, oh gosh, We shot a lot of dishes. I I still have the photo shoot, um, all the images from it, but I, I think it was like something like 20 dishes
and we were like rapid fire and we did it in like two hours, which at the time I was like, damn two hours.
I am exhausted. This is a lot of work. Now. I'm like, you know, I look at myself, I'm like we do maybe five dishes in eight hours. Right. So
like, it's interesting how, how things evolve, but it was, it was great. Right. And that client was happy. I probably was paid peanuts and it's wonderful. Um, but yeah, it's, it's interesting.
I, I ki I forgot where we started on that one, but, um, where did we start on that one? I'm trying to
remember how we
got.
Mica: uh, what your
Joanie: Oh, the expectation. So I think the expectation was to get people, the education that they [00:27:00] needed, that I know that would've really helped me when I was getting started just to get oriented because it's like, ah, there's so many things to think about my website and my pricing.
And admittedly too, the reason that then the course full-time framework morphed into profitable pricing was what I was finding is where the biggest ahas in full-time framework was the profitable pricing. Like the pricing component of that course was like where people were really seeing the most value.
I mean, there's value in the website stuff and production and all this. Um, but like where they were really getting a lot was the pricing. And I thought, well, I can just make this a smaller go on your own pace course to provide people because admittedly, you know, this pricing in commercial photography is complicated and it is, you
know, like it's. And so profitable Pricing was the answer to simplify that. And so, yeah, it was, it was an evolution now, little behind the scenes. You've [00:28:00] heard it here fo don't tell anybody this is a secret. Um, but we
Mica: I won't Tell anyone, but the
billions of listeners
Joanie: don't tell anybody, this is just between us chickens. Um, but, uh, we are working on what is, what full-time framework, what I really wanted it to be in terms of a more all encompassing business course for food photographers, um, that not only goes deep on the pricing, goes deep on the marketing with tangible plans and actions, but then bringing in the thing that I'd always discounted and did not recognize until just maybe within the last six months is what's really needed are sales skills.
And, you know, I had the luxury of.
A master's degree in counseling and spending all these years in, you know, high ticket sales to restaurants and, uh, you know, like all of those experiences, I was always like, oh yeah, people know [00:29:00] that stuff, no people don't know that stuff, and that is
stuff. So,
so I'm, uh, I'm, I'm what, I don't know what the expression would be for it, but I'm definitely knee deep or, or maybe chin deep at this point in, um, really developing a very solid sales system for creatives, food, photographers, freelancers, um, because the problem is what I teach in profitable pricing, which is certainly valuable and certainly helps you understand what you need to be charging, um, in, from just a profit standpoint and some of those bus business basics.
How we talk about licensing, how we write licenses and contracts and all. that But in order to really deliver and find ongoing success with cause you know, you go into a sales situation against, you know, maybe three other photographers and you come out the most expensive. Well, if you've got adequate sales skills and a sales system, in order to deliver those more premium [00:30:00] numbers, you, you need that in order to be more effective at that.
And it's really so much in those communication skills. So that is, that's what we're currently developing. It's Gonna be by the time it goes live about a year in, um, year in production to really bring it to fruition. Cause we wanna take something that it's literally your one stop shop in that department and finally once and for all provide the product that, um, but, but that requires a team that requires a lot more people than just, you know, solo Joanie.
So that's why this year too has been a big year of, um, building infrastructure and streamlining the education business so that we can bring something like that into real life. Cause you can't, you can't bring something on that level to fruition all by yourself.
I've tried, I've tried and it, and I, you know, it was valuable what I've done in the past, but this is gonna be, this will be next level.
So I'm pretty
pretty
jazzed.
Mica: And I, gosh, that is, that is big, big, big, big, big thing, you know? Uh, [00:31:00]
yeah.
In photography school, they teach us what I loved about your course. Um, and what I love even more about profitable pricing. It's it's for mid-level photographers who are like, okay, I know how to take pictures. I know my camera, like the back of my hand, like, I'm good.
What I need to know is how to get work. What does that look like? What does the billing look like? But even further that you're gonna go is how do I really get the work? Because it's all in that phone call, building that confidence with talking to these clients and saying, you know, if you are a higher priced Standing by that rate and saying, this is what you get.
When you get someone like me, you wanna go to Walmart, go to Walmart. You want Creighton barrel who come to me? Like, that's, that's what I'm here for. And courses like that would be so good because all of the questions that I see, half of the questions I get from [00:32:00] like other photographers who are reaching out to me and I'm like, I don't know, I'm figuring this out.
Like you asked me a question. I go ask my teacher question. Like, we let's go Google this until we find an answer. Um, but the biggest question is like, what do you say when you book that, you know, that consultation call? If they cuz half of the jobs I've booked, haven't been through email. It's been all right, let's get on the phone and let's talk
about this, but I don't know if it's a, I'm not gonna say it's a generational thing because I don't think that's true.
I think it's a holy shit. I don't wanna get on the phone with someone. cause what if I say something stupid
fear.
It's it's so I'm excited about this, and I know that other folks who are listening in are, are gonna be like who
Joanie: Huh. Well, And the thing is too. I mean, the thing is too, you gotta think about us as creatives. And I know that [00:33:00] I probably come across in my demeanor as more extroverted, but in reality, like in, in, and I'm definitely a high strung person and I love being around people, but I, I definitely have some of those introverted tendencies, but there are a lot of people in our community.
Um, perhaps, you know, folks listening right now who definitely I identify as introverted. And so like that idea of having to not just get on a call, but get on a zoom and reading somebody's, um, you know, body language and building relationship, building connection. And these are things you have to do, but it doesn't have to be impossible and it can.
be Doable. There is a great book out there for anybody who does identify as introverted. It's a run out and buy this book right now. It's called introverts edge by let's see, I've got it floating around over here somewhere by polar. What's his name? Ma Matthew Pollard. He is, it's a, it's a wonderful book. And you will, I would say [00:34:00] anybody, even if you're extroverted, it's valuable.
Um, but some really great tangible, cuz I think that's also, what's very challenging. Is there, you know, are so many books that are like, we're gonna teach you sales or Hey, we've got those great sales for photographers and it's just a lot of fluff and it's not something you can sink your teeth into. And that, that is the frustration.
And I'm like, okay, I want somebody to solve this and nobody's solving it. I guess I gotta solve it. Here we go. I'm gonna come up. I'm gonna come up with a solution, but yeah, run out and get introverts edge. Um, it's a, it's a wonderful read.
Highly recommend it.
Mica: And I, I think it's great. I do think that extroverts should read it as well. I mean, I agree with you because it will possibly teach you how to interact with an introvert. You don't know if the client that you're talking to is introverted and it's gonna be like really hard to get answers from them.
And it's probably cuz they're not in, they're not familiar [00:35:00] with, I don't know, like hiring and booking a photographer. So it there's that awkward turtle. You've got like someone who's super extroverted and then you have the client who's introverted and you're like, oh two very different energies coming together.
And it gets awkward real fast.
so,
Joanie: First of all, I need to acknowledge your use of the awkward turtle. I have not heard that expression since college and I am just sitting here going, I'm going like this. Cuz we used to have a little hand. People is terrible for podcasting, but we had our little awkward turtle cuz he is upside down.
Oh my gosh, seriously, we need to bring this back
Mica: oh, I'm bringing it back. I'm
saying bomb.com and
Joanie: awkward. turtle make yourself a little
drawing avatar. It's gonna be, it's gonna be lit. But I would say to the thing to be aware of also, and you know, people think that. Extroverts are natural salespeople. [00:36:00] And I would say, and the research backs this up from many other books is that that's actually not the case because from, uh, there's a great sales training that I went through in my days of learning to be a salesperson.
Um, it was a little old school, but had some really great, great tenants. And one of the things that I loved it's the Sandler sales method, but he, the, the expression is like he had all these fun little catch phrases that would remind you like behaviors that you should or should not be doing in a sales call.
And one of 'em is if you're running your mouth, you're outta control because ultimately the person who's controlling the conversation is the person who's asking the questions and listening, just like. You here as the host of a podcast, like the favorite hosts out, there are the ones who are asking good questions and
actively listening to totally, totally.
That's why you're great at this, right. Is that active listening to pick up on a little nugget? You've done it multiple times throughout this interview and going, [00:37:00] ah, like let's go back to that. cause there's something there's something I wanna dive deeper on. And we do the same exact thing in sales and introverts on average, this is not saying that extroverts aren't great at this too, but introverts have a certain level of awareness in listening naturally because they are not talking as much and they are listening more.
And so that is, that is a superpower and introverts can be. Unbelievably successful. There is not an even, you know, account for, because you're an extrovert, you're gonna be a great salesperson or because you're an introvert, like it, there's an equal opportunity for all. It's understanding your own personal, um, biases or downfalls, which can also, I mean, we talk about the idea that your greatest weaknesses can become your greatest strengths.
And so, you know, in all sorts of manner of ways, so yeah, it's, um, I'm, I'm in the sales. Mode right now, I'm just having so much fun. And I just can't wait to teach everybody this cause again, it's one of those things. And I think this [00:38:00] is a lot of us in our creative journey is we suddenly find ourselves in this thing that you're like, why didn't I do this?
Earlier, like this was so obvious, like what is wrong with me that I did not like same idea of, you know, between 2015 and 2017. When I started the bite shot, you know, there's this period of two years when I was creating YouTube videos that were cooking videos, like a whole other YouTube channel. But I happened to share one video in that channel about how I was doing food photography.
And that video just like was by far and away, one of the most popular videos, like my channel didn't go anywhere. Nobody was watching. I was just in another chick, you know, making pies on the internet. Like it was not anything wildly over the top, but you know, it was like that video suddenly caught fire, but it took me like a full year and a half till I was like, you know, I can turn this into a whole channel in itself, you know, like I just wasn't aware of it.
I'm like, gosh, the, the handwriting was on the wall all the time. Why didn't I see that before? And so, you know, a lot [00:39:00] of us, I think, kick ourselves and go, gosh, I should have done that earlier. But I think, you know, hindsight's 2020, and you can't know until you get to that moment where there's other, I think that's also a part of it is like, yeah, there's this inborn or there's this natural thing that is maybe obvious to other people, but you need multiple inputs coming at that.
Right? Like I needed a community of people in, you know, full-time framework than profitable pricing to, you know, be sharing all these challenges that I'm like, well, that's sales, that's sales, that's sales. And then having other people join my team, like Rachel who's here, um, working as a part of my team and she's like, Joanie sales.
Hello. You know? And I'm like, oh, oh, oh, You know, just like with the food photography, you know, I'm creating this video. I'm like, oh, okay. Whatever. And then all of a sudden there's local bloggers. Like, can you teach us how to do food photography now? Okay. Let's hold some little workshops and oh, okay. Now I'm gonna make some YouTube videos about this.
And you know, it's like, you gotta let the [00:40:00] process unfold. And it's you, sometimes you can't force it as much as we wanna have a as much as we wanna say, like, here's where I'm going. This is my business is the trajectory. Like you gotta kind of start throwing some
Mica: Yeah. And you, I liked what you said earlier about, um, how introverts their superpower is being able to ask questions and listen. And that is such a superpower I've learned in my sales calls to ask open-ended questions and using that moment, listening to them, talk and picking up on things that I think is the most important to them.
And writing that down on a piece of paper. And when I send them a quote, I use a couple of keywords that they said, that's a superpower that introverts have, like they, they will listen and they will bring it back around and say, I remember when you did this and it goes, wow, I really feel cared for. I really feel listened to.
[00:41:00] And and
another good point that you brought, um, About kicking ourselves about like, why didn't I do this before? I've been doing all these cooking videos and it's like, I think it, it comes down to being ready and feeling comfortable enough to answer any questions.
And, and sometimes it just happens when it needs to happen more than anything.
Like you, you do enough things, you get enough experience. And then when a, a person comes up to you and they're like, Hey, oh my gosh, you do food photography. You're like, oh, well, I remember when I was doing this shoot and I can tie it back. And oh, if you wanna go back to this cooking video, this is how something would look great in this, you know, thing.
Um, so here's a good, here's a question I have for you
How do you find balance between being an educator and a photographer?
Joanie: Oh, so hard. [00:42:00] it's very hard. And you know, and I, this is a conversation. I have a lot with my fellow educator colleagues and, you know, I think that, you know, everybody has their own way of managing it or their own decisions. Like I've seen plenty of folks get to a point and go, you know, like the education's really my focus and that's the direction I'm gonna pursue.
And I'm gonna focus exclusively on that. Um, I've seen other educators who are like, you know, this education thing is cool, but I still, like, my heart is most invested in client work. And for me, I love both so much, but I would say I go on kind of thus far, and this is something that I would say for those who are building a business, bring in people and help sooner than you need, because I have, I never got over being three years old and saying, I'll do it myself, right?
Like we're three and go, I can do it myself. I mean, I've got kids and they, they do that. Um, and I just never grew out of that until [00:43:00] maybe last month. cause I, I, you know, it's that control it's that? Also not wanting to burden other people and not feeling confident to like how to do it and it's gonna be messy.
Um, but I would say up until this point, I have kind of tacked between seasons of one and the other, there have been periods when I have not produced as much content. I've not launched courses. I've not created as much YouTube videos because I've been really focused in, on the client side of the work. Um, there's been other times when, you know, it's kind of the opposite and I'm like, like for example, the last.
Six months. We've really limited our client, like literally two clients that we've had on recurring basis, who are dreamboats to work with. And I'm so grateful for them. And, um, they're easy. So they don't take a lot of extra bandwidth in [00:44:00] terms of negotiating contracts. Like it's kind of set and we rock. Um, and so those I've maintained, but I've really not taken on any other opportunities.
I have been brokering, you know, negotiating some contracts for later in the year. Um, but the focus for the last bit of time has really been creating some infrastructure to streamline operations and bring people in to the education side of the business. Because at the end of the day, you think about like your, our own zone of genius, as you know, folks talk about this idea of what is it that you as a business operator, if that's an education or even a photography, like what is it that.
Only you can do. And that is the secret sauce and magic that you do. And for me, that's being on camera, that's developing curriculum, that's writing, that's having big ideas, that's it, uh, interacting in the community. Like those are things that I'm uniquely good at and need, need to be doing and want to be doing that.
Those are the things that fill me [00:45:00] up, but in terms of like, Coming up with our client relationship management and our project management, and God bless its soul. Uh, Rachel, who is on my team, who's over here, who has created the most magical, um, content pipeline in terms of how we can batch create content, um, which has been a beast of a project.
And so, but I could not have done that. I needed somebody with that expertise Um, who is patient enough with my chaos to, to help out with that process and take that so that then I can focus on what I'm good at, and then that's gonna leave the margin available then to take on really cool, uh, client projects when they come across our desk.
So, you know, I think that we're in this kind of messy middle of like continuing to try to do both and having to kind of tack back and forth because the systems have not been in place in order to make that more efficient. But now with more team members in place and continuing to expand that team and taking the financial [00:46:00] risks of reinvesting back in the business, that that is going to help us then take it so that yeah, we can create these kick ass courses and these wonderful community environments for food photographers while also then, um, being able to do the.
Food photography, which, you know, we all kind of, at the end of the day, I'll say like, how many times have you said, you know, I, I just wanna take pictures of my food. Like, that's really all I wanna do. Like all this other stuff, like,
Mica: Yeah, you you, raised a good point. Um, you raised a good point earlier about, uh, re hiring help sooner than later, you know, and how creatives kind of go through this. Like, I can do it on my own. I can do it. Well, of course you can do it on your own. You shouldn't though, because it, uh, like for example, when you're in a shoot and you have your assistant there, you know, you wanna go [00:47:00] adjust that light, but that's what your assistant is there for.
Your job is the photographer. And to delegate that. So me to the moment where you realized, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm expanding my team. What was that moment like for you?
Joanie: I mean it's terrifying. Right. Um, because especially, I mean, there's, there's kind of a, I would say it's sort of stratified, right? Cause there's the, um, like to me, the first dip of the toe into the pool for me was outsourcing my video editing. So I was, I, and I feel again incredibly fortunate and I've gotten very lucky that the right people have shown up in my orbit at the time that they needed to show up to help me to be a part of this journey to help further the cause.
And so. Yosef who edits our videos, uh, sent me a pitch, like a cold pitch. And I gotta give I've. I gotta see if he still has that cold pitch, cause it was [00:48:00] a super effective cold pitch. I didn't know him from anybody, but it was like one of these pitches that it was like the perfect amount of like he had done his research.
He knew not just like, oh, I love food photography. Like he had clearly. Spent time on my channel knew what I was doing was able to demonstrate that in the pitch he sent, and then he identified one thing that was a weakness in the channel, but he identified it in a way that was caring and thoughtful without calling my baby ugly.
Right. Because that's what you don't wanna do is like, come in and tell somebody like, oh, your food photography on your Instagram feed is horrible. And then you come to find out like, it's the boss's kid. Who's taken the photos for the Instagram. Oh, now I, you know, foot in mouth. That's how it works. So he, I, again, I'll have to ask you if he has that email, cuz I thought that it really got me thinking he had pointed out like my audio on my videos was inconsistent and I as somebody whose you know, aware.
Content and how, and [00:49:00] production quality knew that like the, the chink in my armor was that I didn't have a knowledge of how audio worked. And so I was doing the best that I could, but I knew that it was inconsistent and knew I needed help with that. And he was able to demonstrate like, Hey, I got skills in this area.
And he also presented a super helpful way for me to sort of dabble with it, to say, how about we do one video together and then I'm gonna give it, you know, we'll do it. I think he was just getting his business started as well. Um, so, you know, you wouldn't necessarily do this if you were more established, but he said, you know, we'll do it a test and I'll charge you a reduced rate.
And, you know, if it, if you like it and it works then great, we can continue on. And you know, this will be the rate moving forward, but if not, no hard feelings. And so I was like, great, low. risk Low barrier to entry. This guy seems legit. He also had a demo reel that was like demonstrating what he could do. And it was like [00:50:00] super playful and fun and like expressed his personality of like he had Pikachu flying and he is like, I can do effects and I can do this.
And, and it was like the right amount of cheesy for my personal taste. I'm like, this is a cat I can get along with. And now we've been, I mean, I feel like it's been two and a half years now since we've been working together. And I just really appreciate, um, all that he does. He's incredible. And so that was like, First dip of the toe in the water is like working with 1099 subcontractors, um, folks who are not full-time employees or even part-time employees, like, you know, they're contract workers.
And so I, you know, that, that get, that helps get you more comfortable. And I think that's a good starting place. But then at a certain point, when you're like, for example, you know, we're, we're looking toward what we're building in this business course and what we're looking in and building in our communities, um, big projects that we wanna launch that, you know, again are gonna require.
Then at that point more than subcontractors, you're gonna need. People who are [00:51:00] in this with you, who are gonna, you know, be in the mess in the murk and, you know, have that, that there's an extra level of commitment. But with that also becomes like an extra level of responsibility going, oh gosh, like now, like I don't mind risking my own butt, but now like there's these other people and there's, there's an intense level of responsibility, you know, going back to that responsibility piece, like if I'm gonna bring people on, I wanna ensure that, you know, their livelihood is taken care of and that I can, um, not just make my own life great, but help, help, you know, provide a great life for them as well.
So, yeah, so it's, it's scary, but it's also, I would say after you, like, I, I have a friend who she's further along in her business than me has hired people and kind of a similar business. She's got a marketing business, but. I was like, I don't know. I'm just scared. What do I do? And she's like, Joanie, rip off the freaking bandaid.
Like it is time for you to grow. You're playing small. You need to be done with this, like move on woman. And I was like, okay. And [00:52:00] now, like on the other side of it, I'm like, A hundred percent. Like the, the handwriting is on the wall for me, like, oh, I'm like, and as dumb as this sounds, I'm like, oh, this is how people scale their business.
Like, this is how it works. This is how you build a business. Right. So that clarity and, um, you know, it's, it's still nerve wracking, but it's exciting. And you know, you think back Dan pink is a great author. He just wrote a book about regret. Um, he's also got some great sales books, but, um, he was talking about how, you know, he surveyed all these people who look back on their lives and you think about the things that you regret, and it's never things like, oh, I should have bought this car or, oh, I should have had this for dinner or I should have, you know, it's always like, oh, I didn't go for that relationship.
Or, oh, I didn't launch that business or, oh, I played it small and didn't go for that. You know? So it's like,
Mica: yeah.
Joanie: There's a risk taking is a part of it. And that's, it's [00:53:00] thrilling and scary. It's like a roller coaster, but here we are. And you know, I have, I have a faith in my heart that like, it's all gonna work out.
I don't know how it's gonna look. I don't, because it's, to be honest, it's always turned out better than I could have personally designed. Um, but you know, just staying faithful to continuing to show up and make, you know, work in periods of rest. I think that that's a thing that I continue to struggle with, but, um, continue to work on.
So yeah. So as a whole, that was a soap box. You just
Mica: no, I, I, I love what you said earlier about, uh, Dan Pink's book about regret and how, you know, people look back on their lives and
what they
don't regret things like
materialistic things, but.
Joanie: it's like
Mica: Life experience things. Uh, it reminds me of, um, when of a time I worked at a retirement center. I actually, when I was a senior in high school, I was a, a care attendant.
I didn't know what I was [00:54:00] doing, but I was just a warm body. So they were like, get in there. You're young and spry and you can lift go. And ..And so I went
Joanie: Great.
Mica: right. I mean, it's a little bit more qualified now. You gotta have like a CNA license, you gotta know things and stuff, but. You know, I just kinda, I needed a job.
I was going off to college and I needed some money cuz I knew once I got to school, I wouldn't, you know, have a job. And I went to school in like the middle of nowhere, Texas. I was like, I'm gonna break out of Austin and I'm gonna break free and travel to San Angelo, Texas. And it was very rebellious period.
Yes, very rebellious period for me at the time. But I did work at a retirement center the summer before and everyone that I worked with, you know, they, they told me about their live stores. I just loved looking at all of their pictures and you know, their experiences and being a little 18 year old there, [00:55:00] like they just wanna give you all the life advice.
And a lot of it was don't be afraid to just go out there and do it. Like don't be afraid to move to a city. If you don't know anybody, that doesn't mean you won't always know anybody there, like just take risks and that's everything they said to me, it took a hot minute. Like I was like 32 by the time I learned that lesson, but , I still take it with me in my heart.
But I, I, I love that you said that about, you know, not being, just doing that. And also our biggest fear is not succeeding at that. And it's like, okay, it's okay to fail.
it's okay. At least, you
know, at least, you know, you went out there, you did it, it blew up in your face
and now you can just go cry in the corner, get over it and then get back out there and find the next dream or goal or [00:56:00] whatever.
Um,
Joanie: Absolutely. Cause you're gonna learn so much in that. I
mean, those are
those are the moments that's, those are defining moments.
I mean, we were talking about cookbooks earlier and there was one, it was the second cookbook that I ever shot and it never got published. It was, but it was the first cookbook shoot that I was ever on.
That there was a food stylist. It was my first time working with a food stylist. It was not a well organized shoot because of a variety of factors like me with my experience now would look at that and go, oh, hell to the, no, but I. Did they shoot, but the, the book never got published and this was for a national hospitality brand and I felt so much guilt and shame over, oh, this book never got published, cause it was my fault cause I'm a terrible photographer.
Right. And I remember also just feeling so inadequate during that shoot. Like they wanted me to be shooting tethered, but I didn't know how to shoot tethered. Like this was early on before I'd figured things out. And there were just [00:57:00] so many things that, yeah, I, you know, if I, if there's some stepping in it to do I've I've done it.
And so, you know, and I felt so bad about that for so long, but then I'm like, but no, like there, there was this resolve within me that was like, no, I can do this. Right. Like it's it's saying, yeah, that was, that was really crappy. And I really don't wanna do that again, but guess what? I know these 20 things now that went wrong, that I sure is shooting.
Next time I get. Sitting in front of a cookbook opportunity. These are questions I'm gonna ask. These are gonna things I wanna know. These are right. Like, which is all turned into now, like documents that I use when I do a discovery call or even like getting an in email from somebody and they, you know, kind of give me the scope of a project.
I'm like, who would I wanna touch out with that 10 foot pole? Right. Cause you just know like, oh, this is sending me down. Right. But that's that, that awareness and that experience and.
I could sit there and go, and ultimately let's be honest. Like why did that cookbook [00:58:00] get, not get published? I mean, probably a whole host of reasons that I have no business, no one, no idea of, um, you know, it's it, maybe my photography was horrible, but probably it's because it was a hot mess of a production and they're a hot mess of an organization and they never got their act together to finally publish it.
Right. So whatever the reason I can't sit and wallow in that, and I can't sit and hide then, because now I've successfully shot tons of cookbooks that I'm super proud of and, you know, continue to do that. So it's yeah. You, you gotta just embrace those fail learnings. Like we call
Mica: yes,
Joanie: So they're not failures opportunities to learn
Mica: it is so interesting. You say that because you're that cookbook didn't get, get published. Anyone could go. This is never happening again. I never wanna do this again, but it wasn't the last time you ever did it, you kept doing it more and more and more and more. So it's okay to like embrace failures and [00:59:00] keep, you know, keep trying, keep trying, keep trying.
And eventually you're gonna get to a place where you're like, I love cook back shows, you know, but that first one is the one that's gonna keep you up all night. And maybe even the second one, probably the third one, if you have high anxiety like me, you know but after the fourth, fifth,
Joanie: totally.
Mica: get better.
Um, so I was listening to your interview with, um, what is it? Food blogger pro uh, pinch of Yum Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I love pinch of yum love the financial reports, all of that. And I re I listened to the story, the, of the chicken. I love that story. I love that story, but what I love more than anything is a point that you brought up.
You said you can't control other people. You can't control their thoughts and emotions. That's on them. You can acknowledge it and then you can be loving and supportive, but ultimately not let it impact your [01:00:00] yard because you're only responsible for yourself. I love that point that you made and for the folks who have not heard the story, please go listen to it.
It is so awesome. It's so funny. But it's also a point that my, um, therapist always brings up. Cuz I always tell her, I go, what if you know they don't, what if my, what if this person doesn't like me? She goes, it's not your business. I'm like, well,
what if they don't like me? She goes not my business. Like, look, if nobody in the room likes me, it is my business.
I need to know why. But um,
I wanna
ask you this in. Relation to that. Um, how has this outlook impacted your career?
Joanie: Yeah. I mean, it's still something I struggle with. Right. It's just like the idea of being in recovery. It's like, it's, you continue to show up every day, right? Every day is a new day and you know, things will get in your way and there will be challenges that get you off [01:01:00] course. And so the same sort of idea of, you know, I struggle with taking on too much responsibility for other people's emotions.
Like I am wired for that. Maybe some of that is just biologically how my brain is made up and the chemicals floating around in there. And some of that is based on how I was raised and, you know, societal expectations and all sorts of right gal. It's a whole mix of stuff that causes me to wanna make people feel okay.
Which I also come back to. It's also me wanting to know I'm okay. Cuz if everybody else is happy, that means that I'm perfect. Right. And that's, that's what we're achieving. Right. That's what we're going for, which clearly is unreasonable. Um, but you know, even with like full-time framework, right? It's the same sort of thing, right?
Like I'm like, I am struggling with this and I am feeling so responsible for these people and their emotions and their success and like. Allowed myself to get burned out in that. And so knowing that that is a weakness of mine, how do we [01:02:00] orient what we're doing in the future to know that this is something that's super valuable to provide to people, they need this education.
This is so important. And how do I do that in a way? And then also continue to check myself, cuz I do know that I have the capability to remember, but it's a constant discipline to remind myself and to remember and to say, yeah, it's, you can, you can survive. If somebody doesn't like you, yes, you will be fine.
Yes. This is not the meaning in life to be well liked and to be nice. And you know, not that I'm gonna run around being a jerk and not that I'm not gonna care deeply for people. Right. Cuz I think that, you know, there's like that two sides of the coin of, you know, there's always a balance in everything of saying, you know, well, I don't care what people think about me, but like.
I do, right? Because I care about people and I think there's a healthy way to do it. You know, I think about my husband who is a bit of a unicorn human and, and maybe other humans are like this. I, you know, I just, I live with this one. So he's a very immediate example for [01:03:00] me. But like, you know, my level of anxiety about people pleasing and all that stuff is completely the polar opposite of him.
Like he is. And it's not that he's oblivious. And I mean, he is a little, a bit aloof, people will say. Um, and he would totally agree with me on that, but he he's very, like, he just doesn't get worked up about it. He's like, yeah, I'm, you know, whoever's frustrated at me or whatever. Like he doesn't take that personally, but he's also the most genuinely caring person.
And I feel like he's a great model for me to remember that level of balance of. Having a lot of love and sharing a lot of love with people and doing your best work and taking care of the humans that are in your care and in your orbit, but at the same time, not having your self definition be based on, on those inputs.
So there's,
there's a balance right? It's not, it's not either, or it's both, both
Mica: for sure. And I, [01:04:00] I, I liked what you said earlier, um, about. Coming from a place of care. Like it's like you care so much about people who invest in your course and you want them to be successful so much to the point that it sometimes can have, you know, a huge impact on yourself. You know, the way I look at it is the best way that I can help other people is by making sure that I'm okay.
And, and that's how you are for your students and for people, your community, you know, to take care of your community, you gotta take care of yourself and anyone who's like not okay with that. , that's what we call toxic people because they understand that caring. Doesn't just extend out to like you. Are, are you okay?
But like giving that person, the space to like, let them go and take care of themselves. [01:05:00] Like, what does self-care look like? Okay, I'm gonna let you go do that. And I love, I love that. You know, when to take a break from social media, how real you keep it and how you say, look, this is starting to mess with me.
So I'm gonna go take a break.
You know, I'll catch you guys in a couple of weeks when you know I'm doing better. And when I'm feeling refreshed and inspired, because when you are like fully recharged and ready to go, imagine the world, you know, the many, many thousands, millions of people that you will then inspire to be refreshed and ready to go.
And it might encourage someone to go, Hey, you know, rested in a while. Maybe I should go rest. Um, I, I love, I love that message. I mean, I can go on and on and about that.
Joanie: Yeah.
Mica: have you made
Joanie: I mean, you gotta put your, you gotta put your oxygen
mask on first right? That's the order of [01:06:00] operations you put yours
Mica: And then you help the person next
to you. That's right. That's right. You know that my mom, every time she came home from work, I would run up to that woman. I'd be like, I got things to tell you. I, she called me the reporter. I mean, my brothers called me a snitch, but tomato, tomato. I told him like,
Joanie: Hey, it's all
Mica: look, I tell anyone.
I like, if y'all are committing a crime, do not tell me because as soon as I hang up the phone, I'm calling, the cops do not rely on me.
Yeah, I can keep a secret, but as long as I don't land in jail. So with my mom, I used to like go up to her immediately to tell her all the things that my brothers did and they did a lot.
Um, and she would say, I need you to get away from me. she's like, I just got off of work.
I've been on the bus. Just gimme a minute, give me a minute and then come [01:07:00] talk to me. And so she'd say, all right, what time is it? It's like, it's 7 0 5. All right. Don't come talk to me till seven 30. And I go, okay. You know, I get it now as an adult, like I don't have, I don't have children.
I have
dogs. And I tell my dogs like, y'all need a ye
away from me now. I will feed You
I will care for you, but get away from me.
Joanie: Yes. I need to be my
best self to
do that.
Mica: Um, so how do you think your life experience, your background and interest have shaped your career path?
Joanie: Hmm. That's a good question. I mean, you know, it's interesting as a, I mean the career path that I have, the career that I have now did not in its current iteration exist when I went to college, right? Like there was not a YouTuber box on the questionnaire. So, you know, it is so interesting to see how the accumulation of all of these unique and very [01:08:00] divergent different.
Paths like to start out as an art history major in undergrad, and then to go get a, you know, master's degree in counseling and do student, you know, higher ed administration and you know, all that for a number of years, and then run over into this sales and, you know, podcasting and content creation and blogging, like get all sort of accumulates into this really magical thing that I get to now do.
Um, and I, you know, I had no plan. I was like, well, let's try it over here. Let's try it over here. So, you know, always kind of taking the perspective. You know, you, you gotta kind of sometimes wander off to go figure out not only where you maybe wanna be instead, but then also just to accumulate some divergent skills that will all sort of pair up together because the, the singular trait that runs through all of it is you, right?
Like there is, there's no singular other you in the universe. So there's nobody showing up to do the unique things that I'm doing, because they don't have all these [01:09:00] combination skills. They got other combination skills that make them really great at what they do. So, you know, there's never anything wasted.
And one of the things that I feel like is, um, And a lesson that I learned early as a kid, and I don't know why I took it to heart. So, uh, earnestly, but it really is something that I continue to come back to is the idea of the sunk cost fallacy, the idea that, you know, we start to like invest in a thing and you, like, for example, I was, you know, got a master's degree and spent all this time working up the ladder in higher education, working on college campuses, you know, expanding all my skills.
And then I'm just like, I don't wanna do this anymore. And a lot of people, right. You're like, I bet I've invested all like years, I've invested tons of money. I have done all these things. Right. Like, and you start to think about the sunk cost and that keeps you in the thing as opposed to going, I mean, at the end of the day, you're like, yeah.
Okay, great. Like here we go. Let's take a pivot over in this direction. And so I, that has [01:10:00] always been something that I think has helped me is recognizing that. Sun costs, sun costs, right? Like I bought, I mean, bless my heart, all the gear I've bought over the years that I'm like that I did not need to buy, but I think that, like that has helped me be a better educator because now I know what you shouldn't go by now.
I know what are the best things to recommend because I've spent all that money and now I could like go, oh man, you know, how many thousands of dollars that could add up to and feeling bad about that and getting down to myself as opposed to going, okay. Yeah, that's fine. Now I move on. It's fine. Lost that.
Not gonna recoup it, but I'm gonna recoup it in these other ways, because it's going to help inform me for future things that I'm gonna get involved in. So I think that, you know, when you don't always know when the time is right, but you know, if, if you've got a, a sense that it's time to pivot. Um, and I would say too, just like the ability to trust my gut to a certain extent, I have [01:11:00] always, you know, we all have a gut instinct, I believe.
Um, My intuition's fairly strong though. I ignore it. And then whenever I ignore it, I come to regret that. Uh, but you know, at the end of the day, really leaning into that intuition, you know, I'm not like looking for signs necessarily in the universe to tell me like, Hey, go in this direction, but kind of going with some gut feelings and again, taking that leap because you know, nothing, ventured,
Mica: Yeah. And, uh, you know, you mentioned about how folks sometimes stay in something because of all the years and time and things, you know, that you've raised such a good point about that, because I can think of so many people who have stayed in a college major and knowing that they don't wanna do it anymore.
They do it anyway, cuz they're like, oh God, that's like four years of my life. And I don't wanna give that up. I, I actually dropped out of college a semester before I was to graduate because I realized that I didn't wanna be a theater arts [01:12:00] teacher. And it was like a huge existential crisis for me, cuz like my whole life had been all theater, you know, from sixth grade all the way through college, I was in theater.
It was my whole identity and walking away, it was really scary because of all the years that I invested in it. And, you know, I just think about everyone else. Who's also been in that situation. The same thing. Like if, if you're like in wedding photography and you're like, oh, but I've been a wedding photographer for so long.
And I've built this amazing business as a wedding photographer, but it doesn't serve me anymore. And I wanna do food. It's like, well, guess what, you're gonna keep wasting your time. If you keep staying in it, knowing that your heart's not in it and your work is gonna suffer on top of that. I
Joanie: mm-hmm yeah.
Mica: ah, ah,
Joanie: what
Mica: makes you wanna keep doing what you do, even when it [01:13:00] gets hard?
Joanie: You know, that's a great question. I don't entirely know. I think there is, well, you know, I think there's a certain compulsion to it, right? Like I think as an artist and is a creative person, like, there's just this little thing in you that you're like, I, I now wanna go do that. Like, there's just this little nagging thing, like that continues to come up because I mean, you know, if I think back over the number of times that I had quote unquote failures in food photography, right?
Like the cookbook that never got published or the time I fired all my clients and was like, I'm gonna go help my husband in his real estate. And I, you know, like I've done some real hair brain things to try to sync my food, photography business, but like somehow the camera still ended up in my hands because there's just something in me that love.
Taking pictures of food. Like I get in my flow state. I mean, I get super frustrated. Don't [01:14:00] get me wrong. There's times on set when I'm like, I mean, we have, at least every, anytime we're doing an extended shoot day, there will be a holy crap moment. Can we save this moment? Is this gonna work? Can we figure this out?
I mean, it happens all the time, right? I've been doing this for a good number of years. Granted, not as long as some but long enough. And you know, there's still, I feel very confident in my skills, but there's always. How am I gonna get out of this one? You know? And there's times that I look at food stylists, who I work with and, you know, I've looked at him and I'm like, I don't know.
And he is like, I don't know. But then like, somehow we just, we keep pushing, you know, there was, um, a number of weeks ago we were shooting for a client. We were shooting a Zuki. So it's like the, the cast iron pan and you have cookie dough and you cook it just so that it's slightly soft in the middle, right?
So it's like crispy on top, but still gooey in the middle. And then you load it up with ice cream and you get a whole bunch of fun people together and spoons, and it's not C safe. So not [01:15:00] recommended unless you wanna finish off a whole entire thing by yourself. Great. Knock yourself out. But we were shooting this and there were a lot of factors going on to, you know, in terms of the shoot.
But you know, all of a sudden the ice cream's melting, the things are happening. Some things kind of went a little haywire and both of us are like, Yeah, what's happening, you know? And so, you know, I felt his energy. I, you know, I knew I, and he knew I was anxious, but like we just kept after it. I was like, no, we're not giving up on this.
We are like, let's do this again. Let's Resco this, let's clean it up. Let's add an, you know, like we just kept after it. And the client was like, oh, I didn't think y'all had that. And like, she was, she was like, so impressed. Like, no, you, you kept adding. I said, well, that's the mark of a professional, right.
That when things go wrong, when things aren't going your way, when you're not having fun, you say, well, I I'm gonna show up anyway. I I'm here. We're doing this. This is what I owe to the client and we're gonna make it work and sure enough, we did. And so I find that, you know, that's 10 times outta 10. That's exactly how it [01:16:00] goes.
We're like, oh, what was gonna work? You know? And there's also Photoshop, so Photoshop's great as well. Um, but you know, it's at the end of the day, there's enough fun of it. But I do think there's a certain amount of compulsion. It's the same idea of, you know, continuing to, you know, every day show up in the communities for our courses that I just have.
First of all, I just have so much fun, right? Like I have so much fun doing free photography. I have so much fun. Seeing people have breakthroughs and learn things that I remember were hard for me to learn. I'm like, you know, I remember that first time picking up a speed light and going Lord have mercy.
How the heck am I gonna figure this thing out? And just like knowing that other people are in that place and getting so dadgum excited to know that they're gonna. Experience that breakthrough that I did. And then go, oh my gosh, this is so much fun. I wanna do this all day until then. It's frustrating. And then you're back at square one.
Right. But yeah, there's, it's the, it's the artist compulsion. And I think you should trust those. You know, if it's like, here's this recurring theme continues to surface it's [01:17:00] food
Mica: mm-hmm
Joanie: And now, now here we are, you know, give, give into those
Mica: What does it, um, what does it feel like whenever a student comes to you and they tell you much you've changed their life and how much of an impact their courses make on you?
Joanie: I mean, that's unbelievable. Right? Like it's like, it, it does, it's, it's so gratifying. Right? It's so wonderful to know, like, this is, you know, cuz I think, you know, you set out on food, photography and teaching and you're like, and just like, you know, I like to say at the end of the day, we're not, you know, we're not saving lives here.
We're not curing cancer. Like we're taking pictures of food. So how
Mica: but you are saving lives.
Joanie: But when,
Mica: That is a, you are saving a life. Someone is inspired by the videos you create and they see your story and they see your journey and they go, wow, that's similar to mine. If she can do it, I can do it. You know, you never know where [01:18:00] someone is at that point in their life where they're like, I have nothing going on.
I'm not happy where I'm at, but I don't know where to go. And they find your video, they find your channel and they go, this is it. That's saving
someone's life. It may not be like a doctor, you know,
Joanie: Right.
Mica: there are more than one ways to save someone's life. And I think you do. Yeah.
Joanie: Very kind. Yeah. It's, it's a complete privilege and honor to get to do it. And just to hear people's stories and what they've been through, you know, there was a guy who, um, you know, he watched all the YouTube, you know, he did the thing that I hear, uh, fair number of people do like, oh my gosh, I found one video.
And then I spent like the next three days watching all the videos, I was like, that's a lot, there's a lot of videos. Okay. Um, , he's like, and then I just knew, like I could take this route and he's like, we just bought our first house and here's a picture of me and my wife and baby, and this would not be possible.
And I'm like, I'm I'm, [01:19:00] you know, but it just it's so, so cool. And I think that, yeah, like you said, you know, the impact that we can all have on the world. And my, my hope is cuz you know, like you're talking about Bjork. I was so inspired to like, I would not be here having this interview with you. Had I not seen what Lynsey and Bjork were doing with of Yum and having this inspiration and going through their educational platform.
I went through food blogger pro to set up my first website and like that literally changed my life. And now, as a result of that, it's this trickle down effect that now I'm getting to do that same thing for other people. And I'm, I'm 100% positive that, you know, five years down the line, there's gonna be people who say, oh, I learned this from Joanie.
And this allowed me to now impact, impact other people's lives. It's that trickle down. It's that pay it forward sort of thing. And we just see these little ripples of how we can do the thing that we're uniquely called to as squirly as it is. [01:20:00] And when I tell my FA you know, I tell people who meet me for the first time, I'm a food photographer.
They're like,
I mean, you get it right. They're like,
you're a, what you, right? It's like
confusion.
food photographer,
Totally. Totally. So, but you know, it's that it's whatever squirly, wacky nichey thing that you get into that you know, if you lean into that and you continue to connect with people, um, you know, really, really unexpected, beautiful
things can happen
Mica: What do you hope that people take away from our conversation today? I, this is my favorite interview so far, cuz we've talked about so many wonderful things. So what do you hope that. The person listening to right now walks away from this with
Joanie: Yes. I, you know, the thing that I think is so powerful and I hope we've demonstrated through the things we've talked about here today is what you just said. [01:21:00] The idea that they believe that they can do it, that if you're listening and you're like, I don't know if I can do this, you can do it. Right. Like if you ju like, if you instantly discredit your ability, I see too many folks who come into, you know, the YouTube videos or courses or workshops or wherever I interact with them.
and they instantly have this. I mean, there's doubt. There's always gonna be doubt, right? That's something we all struggle with, but there, there is a nugget inside of you inside of me that there is a belief that if we set out on a path that we can accomplish a thing, right. We don't know exactly how it's gonna look or how it'll manifest or any of that, but there's a, an inherent belief in the ability to do the thing.
And I just wanna make sure that the, if you're listening and you have any shredded doubt as to the eventual ability to execute the thing, there is, there is nothing magical or unique about the food photography that I create. Granted, it's, [01:22:00] it's mine and I continue to cultivate it. And I think it'll continue to get better over time, but like, The, if you wanna make a career out of this, it's absolutely doable because the demand for food photography is higher than ever granted.
Like there's a lot more people doing it, but there's also a lot of demand for it. Um, but yeah, you absolutely. There's nothing special about me and the thing I always too re returned back to Joel Grimes. Who's another educator. Um, he's in the portrait world and I just loved that. He shared in a keynote once at a conference.
He said, you know, the best photographers are not the highest paid photographers and the highest paid photographers are not the best photographers that it it's so true. Like I, I see work of people who I. They are making Buku bucks over here. I know. And I'm like, Hey, it's good work, but it's, you don't need to run out and be Picasso.
You don't have to run out there and go be like, the, every photo does not need to change people's lives. Like you, you just [01:23:00] have to bring what it is that you do. And, um, yeah. So, I mean, I could give y'all the, all the soap is there, but I just, I want people to have that belief that you can do it because if you can get there mentally, a lot of other things become a lot easier because you're not, you're not working
Mica: yes. And you know, your message reminds me so much of. So one of my prof favorite professors, his name is Frank Curry. And, uh, we actually, um, I interviewed him when I had a podcast called the F stop podcast with two of my classmates. We met in, um, in intermediate photography and we just clicked and became really great friends.
And we were in three very different, um, niches. I was food. I, um, my friend Cheyenne, she was in product and my friend, Kayla, who is like one of the most Bombas wedding photographers in Austin. I mean, it's [01:24:00] so awesome seeing how much her career has blossomed and her business has blossomed, but Frank was one of the first people that we interviewed for this podcast.
And, um, one of the things that he said is. People see the final product, but they don't see the work that goes into it. And just the consistency. It's like, you're not gonna be amazing. Every single shot you do, but, or you're not gonna book all of these clients, but it's the consistency. And if you can just remember that and, and keep that at the forefront of your mind to just keep going, keep going, keep going, because you can do it.
It just takes time. It takes consistency. You know, you brought that point up so well about that. And it it's, I hear it's the same message. I
love it. Cuz I've heard it from you. I've heard it from my teacher and, and that's uh, that's what [01:25:00] keeps, uh, me going
and I hope it keeps other people
going too is just keep chopping that tree down and , you'll, you'll find it.
So, uh, where can listeners find you and support you?
Joanie: Yes, everything, all the roads lead back to the bite shot. S H ot.com. So some people think it's the bite shop. You know, it's funny when you create a name for your business. And you're like, oh, this is so obvious to me. And then people like routinely say it wrong and it's like, fine. And you're like, oh, the how, how interesting.
Right. Like I never intended that. Um, and so I always find it. I find that amusing. So yeah, the, and it's not the bike shop. It's the bite. Like the final, it was inspired from when I was shooting a campaign, a series of videos, um, early days of the hands and pans video. For, um, dryers ice cream. And we were, my son was, he was probably four at the [01:26:00] time.
And the very last shot on the shot list for those videos was that a kid's hand would come in, grab the dessert, pull it out, take a bite and put it back in. And so by maybe like the third or fourth, one of these, he comes in and he knows that I'm setting up and getting ready to shoot this video, making like ice cream sandwiches or whatever.
And he's like, is it time for the bite shot yet? Is it time for the bite shot? He is like, that became his like favorite part, right. Is this is how I'm participated in mommy's business. And, uh, so yeah, when it came time to name the channel, you know, I thought, oh, not
Mica: the
bye Chad,
that's such a cute
Joanie: uh, yeah,
Mica: I love it. That's also the best job in the world.
Does, does your son still have the bite shot job?
Cause if it's
open
Joanie: He does. And he is actually, so one of the cookbooks that we shot, um, this past winter, that'll come out this, um, this about fall time frame, uh, it's a Christmas themed cookbook. And you know, sometimes like you [01:27:00] there's, you know, you hand over all the photos to the designer and you just never know which ones are gonna make the cut.
But we did this flat lay of like all these holiday cookies, like all sorts of different colors and types and shapes and decor. And it was like, and it was like on this vibrant red backdrop, it's like so fun. And so blaze was like, tling through the studio and Brendan, the food stylist on the job was like, Oh, Blace come on over here.
Let's like, we're gonna get like the main shot with just the cookies, but how about you reach in and grab one? And of course like this kid's been doing this since he was four he's 10 now. And he is like, ain't no thing. So I was like, so we got the shot, but I was like, who knows if it'll end up in, but saw the proofs and sure enough blaze his hand made it in the cookbook.
And, uh, and his, his little hands are also in the PBA, like the peanut butter and honey sandwich. That's in my own book. So yeah, his, he is, he's probably gonna demand royalty rights at
like some
point he's gonna turn
16 and [01:28:00] I know he's been fair unfairly undercompensated with baked goods, but, uh, yeah, at some point I'm sure he'll come, you know, I'll come to Ru the day, but yeah, he's, he's got some pretty famous hands at
this
Mica: that. I love that. Well, Joanie, thank you
so much for
Joanie: you.
Mica: on this show and, you know, for spreading your wisdom and, and your positive message. And gosh, I
just love
this interview so
much.
It's
Joanie: so much. Thank you.
Mica: a little emotional earlier. I was like, keep it in, keep it in, you
know,
Joanie: Keep it together. Come on
Mica: but yes. Thank
you
so much for, for being a guest.
Joanie: much for your
thanks for having
me.
Mica: y'all
um, thanks so much for listening
and for joining in on this conversation. and if you wanna keep it going, um, send, send some emails, uh, tell me what your opinion is on this. Thank you so much. [01:29:00] Bye.